Advice for dealing with zoning/occupancy issues?

[grehorst]

We have recently found several locations that we are seriously considering moving our distillery to. We are in the city (Milwaukee) and trying to remain here. We originally got our occupancy permit based on the fact that we had so little alcohol on the premises that we fell under certain minimums and didn't qualify as hazardous occupancy. Well, now we are trying to relocate so we can increase our on site barrel storage of aging products, of course that will put us over the minimum and we will have to obtain hazardous occupancy. Hazardous occupancy may only be granted in "heavy industry" zoning which severely limits our options.

After studying the regulations essentially what I've determined is there are two levels with no in between. You're either non hazardous because you have so little (ranging from zero to a few gallons) or you are hazardous (ranging from a few gallons to billions!) Again, no middle ground. Our city strictly adheres to national and international codes, which seem to allow no middle ground either. The problem with hazardous occupancy is it severely limits what can be done within the plant (expensive build out), but even worse what can be done outside or adjacent to the plant (retail). While I understand what we do IS hazardous to some extent, I don't think the hazard is the same as opening a full ethanol fuel distillery producing millions of gallons annually.

In trying to work around these issues my experience has been that the city employees seek ways to why it cannot be done and are not very helpful in determining how it can be done. So, anyone have any experience getting through these sorts of issues? Any advice?

[Andrew]

Is having a separate barrel house out of the question?

[grehorst]

Is having a separate barrel house out of the question?

I suppose not, but barrels aren't the only issue. Increased production also means more alcohol sitting around in tanks, being filtered, etc...

Thanks,

[Andrew]

We're looking at siting in a more developed area as well, and I'd always had in the back of my mind that we could just get a barrel house outside of town if and when we got to that point.

The zoning I've run into is more lenient than it sounds like yours is, but your situation is causing me to second-guess our options.

[Donald R Outterson]

Guy,

We found an enterpise zone as a good fit for microdistillery zoning. There are many areas competing for new businesses to locate there and generate income and jobs. Play them against each other to earn your business. Your ventre could fit into their agenda and they then would make a place for your distillery. Different towns market themselves as places that business should come to, take them at their word and ask them what they have to offer your distillery.

I am saving up to buy our next location, while I continue to rent, but am uncertian about the poor economy, so I'm taking a wait and see additude.

Best regards,

Donald R Outterson

We have recently found several locations that we are seriously considering moving our distillery to. We are in the city (Milwaukee) and trying to remain here. We originally got our occupancy permit based on the fact that we had so little alcohol on the premises that we fell under certain minimums and didn't qualify as hazardous occupancy. Well, now we are trying to relocate so we can increase our on site barrel storage of aging products, of course that will put us over the minimum and we will have to obtain hazardous occupancy. Hazardous occupancy may only be granted in "heavy industry" zoning which severely limits our options.

After studying the regulations essentially what I've determined is there are two levels with no in between. You're either non hazardous because you have so little (ranging from zero to a few gallons) or you are hazardous (ranging from a few gallons to billions!) Again, no middle ground. Our city strictly adheres to national and international codes, which seem to allow no middle ground either. The problem with hazardous occupancy is it severely limits what can be done within the plant (expensive build out), but even worse what can be done outside or adjacent to the plant (retail). While I understand what we do IS hazardous to some extent, I don't think the hazard is the same as opening a full ethanol fuel distillery producing millions of gallons annually.

In trying to work around these issues my experience has been that the city employees seek ways to why it cannot be done and are not very helpful in determining how it can be done. So, anyone have any experience getting through these sorts of issues? Any advice?

[Rich Morgan]

We have recently found several locations that we are seriously considering moving our distillery to. We are in the city (Milwaukee) and trying to remain here. We originally got our occupancy permit based on the fact that we had so little alcohol on the premises that we fell under certain minimums and didn't qualify as hazardous occupancy. Well, now we are trying to relocate so we can increase our on site barrel storage of aging products, of course that will put us over the minimum and we will have to obtain hazardous occupancy. Hazardous occupancy may only be granted in "heavy industry" zoning which severely limits our options.

After studying the regulations essentially what I've determined is there are two levels with no in between. You're either non hazardous because you have so little (ranging from zero to a few gallons) or you are hazardous (ranging from a few gallons to billions!) Again, no middle ground. Our city strictly adheres to national and international codes, which seem to allow no middle ground either. The problem with hazardous occupancy is it severely limits what can be done within the plant (expensive build out), but even worse what can be done outside or adjacent to the plant (retail). While I understand what we do IS hazardous to some extent, I don't think the hazard is the same as opening a full ethanol fuel distillery producing millions of gallons annually.

In trying to work around these issues my experience has been that the city employees seek ways to why it cannot be done and are not very helpful in determining how it can be done. So, anyone have any experience getting through these sorts of issues? Any advice?

I had a similiar issue when we established initially in Australia, different laws but I assume the same principals. Funderementally the issue of hazardous sites / dangerous goods relates to the concentration of the alcohol being stored. ISO standards only consider ethanol to be a DG when its concentration is over 75% ABV. A brewery and/or winery probably would not get the same treatment as you are getting. Try to argue the point that although you hold lots of ethanol, its all not at over 75%, and if it is its only in small quantities pending rework or dilution.

Its not what you tell them but how.....

Hope this sparks some ideas.

[delaware_phoenix]

Usually there are also Zoning Boards (or something like that; it may even be your City Council) and you can apply for a Zoning Variance. Also might depend on the exact kind of location, but I bet you can probably finagle things. It might require a public hearing. Probably easier than locating in a housing development.

[grehorst]

Usually there are also Zoning Boards (or something like that; it may even be your City Council) and you can apply for a Zoning Variance. Also might depend on the exact kind of location, but I bet you can probably finagle things. It might require a public hearing. Probably easier than locating in a housing development.

We've found an ideal property and I've begun the variance process since I last posted- looks like it will take a while... our board needs two months+ to consider the application.

I've been fortunate in that the alderman likes the idea of having us in his district, and I've actually had some good dialog with some of the people in the department of city development. They actually called me to let me know the zoning map had an error and that it may be easier to get approval than first thought.

I'll update the thread occaisionally as we make our way through the process.

[delaware_phoenix]

I just started the Zoning Board of Appeal process. I should have started this in January. But it does seem that there's folks in the local government who know what to do.

Fortunately, everyone seems to be in favor. But it looks like I (and my landlord) have to demonstrate "hardship". But the village authorities say they do this all the time and grant use variances.

[delaware_phoenix]

Progress has been made.

The first public meeting of the ZBA has happened. It went well enough to advance to the next level. The County Planning Board reviewed the project and recommended granting approval of the variance without conditions. Now back to the ZBA for the SEQR (Environmental Review, short form) and hopefully variance approval. Then back to the County for final review of the site plan (as though I'm building anything; I'm simply reusing part of a structure from 1906). But those are the rules. In a village of 3,000 or so.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that the Temperance Movement still exists.

[grehorst]

We've had some progress too... our Board of Zoning Appeals has approved our "heavy industrial" use of the property we plan to move to. Documentation they requested was pretty reasonable and we were able to complete it ourselves. The board, local alderman and other city departments all reviewed the info and gave it the thumbs up.

Now, because our state requires any building containing more than 50,000 cubic feet to have the project plans created/signed off by a PE or Licensed Architect, we are preparing drawings and verifying limitations for our impending City Plan Review.

I asked our local TTB field worker to visit the site, he did a walkthrough and also gave his preliminary approval- biggest concern of course being how we will protect the revenue.

more later...

[Odyssey Spirits]

Is having a separate barrel house out of the question?

When you talk about having a barrel house, are talking about 'on the same property'? Or elsewhere. Being new to this an elsewhere warehouse would seem to introduce a major challenge in production. Am I off?

[Ralph at Tuthilltown]

Local zoning boards and Zoning Board of Appeals' are populated typically by amateurs interpreting law and usually without training in small towns which don't invest money in training their officials. So appeals typically take far longer than they should. It helps to actually invite ZBA members to your facility or site to walk through and see what you do, as most know nothing about distilleries and their fear of the unknown influences their perceptions, especially when there are local residents who resist the change due to unfounded fears. Educate your officials so they comprehend the real nature of your business.

By way of presentation of your concept and request, focus on non-alcohol matters such as: economic development, tourism, agriculture, jobs creation which your operation will influence. Fears of explosive and/or hazardous materials are not uncommon among local residents and uninformed officials, they are typically rumor or fear based.

And remember that resolution of zoning issues takes time, the officials are typically volunteers, meetings a month or two apart and whenever any question comes up in discussion by the Board the issue is usually tabled till the next meeting for the members to "study" the question and get a legal opinion on the issue.