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Wheated Bourbon w/ Rye?

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Does anyone make a wheated bourbon with some rye (say 5%)? I am aiming for the smoothness of a wheat bourbon but would like to add a little rye spice.

Are there any brands out there doing this that I could try?

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I've done that. It works.

With only 10% malted barley you're going to need some additional enzymes to convert the corn.

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use enzymes, it will make your life a heck of a lot easier

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Raw corn needs higher temps than a standard infusion mash to properly gelatinize the starch.

180F + for an hour or two works well, boiling also works awesomely.

Problem is malted barley enzymes are limited to 160F (ish). So you are going to have to gelatinize the corn separately or first, then add malted barley after cooling and wait for those enzymes to do their magic for a couple hours in the 140-160 F range.

Or you could gelatinize the corn at 180-190 F with a high temp alpha-amylase and everything will be grand.

Side Note: Is 15% of the mash bill enough to call it a "Wheated bourbon"? I always figured wheaters had 30-40% of the mash bill being wheat derived... I would call that mash bill "four grain bourbon" or something. Maybe its just me.

Cheers!

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That's about my grain bill. If I don't use added enzymes I end up with about 4 Brix un-ferment able sugars.

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It's important to consider the DP of the malt you're using. It can vary quite considerably. You can also use malted rye and/or malted wheat, which also contains the requisite enzymes and have gelatinization temps below the enzyme denature temps. In the same vein as what CDE wronte, you're probably best investing in separate cereal cooker for the corn if you have the funds. Cooling a mash is a not fun Then you can add the gelatinized corn to the other grains slowly will some cold water, thus achieving the appropriate mashing temp (~64 deg C). Its very important not to overheat your malt as it will denature the amylase.

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Question, from someone interested in the same product, and process, for someone who has or does do it... why not cook (boil) the corn for a bit.. and cool down to a more enzyme friendly temp by adding cold water to reach actual batch volume? Then add your malted barley other grains and hold at the right temp for conversion. Just trying to get a grasp on a .. let's say.. 250gal batch.. as it's not something I've worked with YET... and I realize something that large would not cool the same as my 10gal at home...

Also, didn't want to get off of this topic, and also am interested in the answer to the above question - IS there a ratio to aim for (or round-about, as obviously different malts will vary) for corn-malted barley? Two ways actually - as far as conversion goes, and for flavor - wondering if a 3% rye in a wheated bourbon will be noticeable?

thanks for any input!

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Hey Pooky bear (couldn't resist), that is absolutely an option for gelatinizing the corn separately then cooling to malted barley enzyme temperature ranges. Something to watch for is the starch thickening as the temperature drops and turning your mash into polenta.

A high temp alpha amylase is your friend when working with corn. It is cheap, highly effective, and makes everything easier...

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To the second question. How much malted barley you want to use to corn in entirely up to you. Just take into account the DP of the malt you are using to convert X much more corn and how long your mash is going to have to sit to get the full conversion. More malt makes the conversion go faster (generally speaking) but also greatly increases the price of the grain per batch.

That is a bit more subjective. People will argue that many ways. I would say look at your flavor as a total sum equation.

grain bill + yeast profile + distillation (cuts etc.) + aging techniques + blending techniques = final whiskey flavor

The grains are just one part of the many things that go into making a whiskey.

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Hey Pooky bear (couldn't resist), that is absolutely an option for gelatinizing the corn separately then cooling to malted barley enzyme temperature ranges. Something to watch for is the starch thickening as the temperature drops and turning your mash into polenta.

A high temp alpha amylase is your friend when working with corn. It is cheap, highly effective, and makes everything easier...

---

To the second question. How much malted barley you want to use to corn in entirely up to you. Just take into account the DP of the malt you are using to convert X much more corn and how long your mash is going to have to sit to get the full conversion. More malt makes the conversion go faster (generally speaking) but also greatly increases the price of the grain per batch.

That is a bit more subjective. People will argue that many ways. I would say look at your flavor as a total sum equation.

grain bill + yeast profile + distillation (cuts etc.) + aging techniques + blending techniques = final whiskey flavor

The grains are just one part of the many things that go into making a whiskey.

Absolutely.. well thanks! Pretty sure I've decided on a grain bill.. just, yeah, didn't wanna make polenta, haha.. I'll probably aim for about 80% of the total volume of water needed to get the corn going and boil, then the last 20 to help cool down to 175 for the wheat and try to hold in the 155 range once everything is in..

Anywho.. have to order a few things first... and get my rum runs outta the way.. but .. this will be up next...

-thanks!

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