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Nutrients ?

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I know everybody has a "proprietary" yeast that they use and do not want to discuss but what about nutrients? I was told recently, by people in the industry that deal with supplying yeast, that they do not believe in adding nutrients, they don't think it is necessary. I was always told beforehand that FERM-K or some nutrient regiment must be used in the production of rum and other spirits. Is anyone willing to discuss their nutrient regimen?

Thanks-

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For grain, depends on the backset amount used, but we use White Labs WLN1000 at less than recommended dosages, and depending on the S.G. at the midpoint of fermentation, we may add additional DAP. For sugar we use a regime that is very similar to a Mead staggered nutrient protocol, but with a significantly shorter schedule. We've been fermenting to below 1.000 in as little as 72 hours.

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I can personally say you don't really need them if you do a lower SG %.

But if you have a high SG % it will help out tons!

You can simply use DAP. Like what some of the big rum distilleries use. With DAP more is not better!!!!! Be WARNED!!! You will increase the azmotic (misspelled) pressure and destroy all your yeast cell walls. You will crush them. Start out with really small doses to find out what works best.

Example:

1- .1 gram per 1 gallon of 1.190 ferments in x days

2- .2 grams per 1 gallon of 1.190 ferments in x days

So if you find that if lets just says you can ferment in 6 days @ .3 grams, but if you go to .4grams it stalls out on day 3-4 and there is a bunch of SG left well you just crushed the yeast......

DAP or any nutrient helps the yeast get strong, creates a thick cell wall, cuts down on yeast usage, helps the yeast use up all the sugars, makes a high % of alc and all of the above.

We use a normal yeast strains, and a complex proprietary blend of nutrients, and some simple but very important procedures and we can ferment in 18-24 hours to 12%-14%. That means we don't need near the amount of fermentation tanks because we can have so much throughput.

Take care!

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There's too much of a good thing however. Excessive DAP use, especially late in fermentation, can lead to ethyl carbamate production.

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_ GREAT INFO!!!

@Dehner

SG of 1.190 is like 42brix? Isn't that twice the level you should start with for rum production?

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sorry 1.090...

Also, anything higher than 20%-22% brix will crush the cell wall also. That is why you hear people dump large amounts of yeast in with large amounts of sugar, because 90% of the yeast will die. so to fix this problem and lower your operating cost you should "feed" your yeast if you want super high%.

I can get to 22%-24% abv on a ferment but it takes several days. That is why I do 12%-14% in less than 24hrs. And can make for booze faster.

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>> I can get to 22%-24% abv on a ferment but it takes several days

In several days? With what fermentation source and what yeast. With all due respect I'm a bit suspicious with this claim.

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>> I can get to 22%-24% abv on a ferment but it takes several days

In several days? With what fermentation source and what yeast. With all due respect I'm a bit suspicious with this claim.

Yes, It takes about 4-5 days depending on what time of the year it is. Thats because we keep it cool in the distillery in the winter time. I do not have a lot of patients to wait that long. In less than 24 hours I can get to lets say 12% so in 48 hours I can do 2 runs, or 24 hours or less with extra fermentation capacity. Or I could wait 4-5 thats like 5 times longer.

My mind set when we set out to quickly ferment was the ethanol plants in Brazil, I know it sounds crazy. They would never wait 4-5 days or not even 3-4 days for a ferment. They make millions of gallons a year from sugar cane. Why can't I? So we put a chuck of money into our own Scientific research. Lets just say it paid off.

You'll have to trust me, I would never say anything I could not back up.

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50 gal drum, 150 lbs of white sugar, over pitch with 2.5lbs of turbo yeast, hydrate yeast in a 6-7% abv for about an hour, so as to explode less of those little guys, stir it in. 75* room, 20%ish in 5 days every time. Temp is most important or yucky hot turbo flavors occur. Only situation where nutes are required that I've come across, as they are in the turbo. Whiskey- 11-12 % in 48 hrs to below 1.000 with lallemand GW No nutes. Only situation I've come across that requires nutes is with white sugar. Just what happens over here though. Over pitching works better at speeding things up than nutes, majority of fermentables (other than white sugar) have plenty of nutes in em. Again, over here, that's how it works. Also, definitely no advocating for turbo yeast, but that's only way I've seen those kind of #'s.

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I 2nd not using turbo yeast! That stuff is nasty, and cost way to much. Especially when you start doing things on a very very large scale.

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I would never say anything I could not back up.

Trust, but verify. Unless you can scientifically prove your claim and have it peer reviewed, it didn't happen.

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Trust, but verify. Unless you can scientifically prove your claim and have it peer reviewed, it didn't happen.

I agree. I it is hard to believe. I don't make money by blurting out all my goodies.

We have spent a LOT of time, energy, and money trying to figure out how to do what we do. So I am sorry, I guess you will just have to not believe me then. Because there is no way we are saying are Secrets.

That is why only certain people at our distillery are a allowed to see the process. And trust me we pulled out all the stops and had lawyers draw up special paper work just for them.

Lets just call this our little trade secrets. I am sure you can understand.

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>> And trust me we pulled out all the stops and had lawyers draw up special paper work just for them.

Really? Iike a patent filing? What's the application or patent number and when was it filed?

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>> And trust me we pulled out all the stops and had lawyers draw up special paper work just for them.

Really? Iike a patent filing? What's the application or patent number and when was it filed?

no, no we did not file a patent. That would make it public.

I am not that slow.

Look, it really does not matter. I am not letting the cat out of the bag. End of story. Thanks.

Back to the topic.

Depending on what base or sugar source type depends on if and what type and how much nutrient you need.

I always say- When you rehydrate your dry yeast it is like they are waking up from a super long nap, what guy doesn't want to eat after a nap before they have to go work.

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Trust, but verify. Unless you can scientifically prove your claim and have it peer reviewed, it didn't happen.

Really? He's not saying something unreal like that he's able to achieve the profile of a quality 12 year scotch in 12 days. Why should any of us have to scientifically prove our processes and have it peer reviewed just for some forum brownie points? I don't think his process makes his rum any better (maybe it does?), it's just making the process more efficient so I don't see any reason to doubt him.

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>> And trust me we pulled out all the stops and had lawyers draw up special paper work just for them.

Really? Iike a patent filing? What's the application or patent number and when was it filed?

Seriously? It seems your reading comprehension is being clouded by your dislike of Dehner. A non-disclosure agreement is nothing like a patent filing.

Dehner is not trying to sell you his process, so maybe ease up on the rhetoric.

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I neither like nor dislike Dehner -- I don't know the guy. What I do know is that he purports to accomplish a feat that, to my knowledge, no one else has done and other experts (assuming it's OK to refer to one who holds a PhD in genetic biotechnology as an expert) in the field have told me is simply not possible in the timeframe to which he refers using standard brewers or distillers yeast. When he then refuses to provide any corroborating or supporting evidence it make me suspicious. Yes, the patent-filing question was a poke at the hornets net for which I offer John an apology (sorry JD).

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