Clarification on Label Regulations

[Joe C]

HI Everyone,

I am new to this forum and already have found valuable information just reviewing some of the postings. I am a start up limoncello manufacturing business and hold a limited distillery license in PA. I am a very small "mom and pop shop" operation at the moment and I am trying to educate myself on all of the local, state, and federal regulations.

Specifically, my label design was that where I listed my varieties of cello on the label along with checkboxes. My thoughts were to save money by ordering one label design in bulk and check off the specific flavor for each respective recipe. I have three working recipes now; Lemon, Orange, and Lime cellos. My label design lists all three flavors with a check box next to each. As I bottle, I would check the flavor off for that bottle. I have tried to contact the Dept of Treasury TTB but haven't heard back yet. Can anyone advise their interpretation of this federal regulation regarding my issue at hand?

I appreciate any feedback and guidance in advance.

Joe

[Jedd Haas]

Do you have your DSP from TTB? You need that first. You need to set up an account on Permits Online to get that. Then you can get an account for Formulas Online and COLAs Online. Don't forget to get your Federal bond as well.

Once you have all that done, you submit your formula to Formulas Online. Upon approval, you submit your label design, which will reference the approved formula. Your three varieties will require three separate formulas. TTB will not approve a label that references more than one formula.

So the short answer to your question is no, this will not fly the way you've described it.

However, you could use a similar design for all three varieties, with the difference being the flavor name. Get all three labels approved individually. When you get your labels printed, leave a blank spot where the flavor name goes. Then get yourself three different rubber stamps for the three flavors and stamp the name on the labels.

[Joe C]

Do you have your DSP from TTB? You need that first. You need to set up an account on Permits Online to get that. Then you can get an account for Formulas Online and COLAs Online. Don't forget to get your Federal bond as well.

Once you have all that done, you submit your formula to Formulas Online. Upon approval, you submit your label design, which will reference the approved formula. Your three varieties will require three separate formulas. TTB will not approve a label that references more than one formula.

So the short answer to your question is no, this will not fly the way you've described it.

However, you could use a similar design for all three varieties, with the difference being the flavor name. Get all three labels approved individually. When you get your labels printed, leave a blank spot where the flavor name goes. Then get yourself three different rubber stamps for the three flavors and stamp the name on the labels.

Great info! thanks Jed. I did not know about registering my formula or the federal bond. I am researching this now. I am actually trying to do all of the leg work prior to sending that $2200 check to the state for my Limited Distillery Permit. But it seems that obtaining my LD permit from the state may be a prerequisite to some of the stuff you have mentioned. I guess it may be time to pull the trigger.

As for the idea with the rubber stamp on a universal label design, well that is genius. Thank you for your help!

[Scrounge]

Am I reading this right? You said in your first post that you held a state license, and then in your last post that you do not? I'm a bit confused, but that doesn't really matter. You would be advised to get your proper permits in place before you start distilling. Just some advice as your state(and perhaps the Feds) will probably come look at your setup when you do apply for a permit, and it shouldn't be looking like your using it yet! Usually you get your federal permit first. Do you hold a federal permit? I assume not since you dont know what your bond is. This is really none of my buisness, but I was confused by your posts. Someone had just posted a link to a story of a distillery that was operating without their state license in place, and the state came out and dumped ALL ther booze and I believe they were facing some criminal charges. You have some big hurdles ahead of you before you need to worry about your labels too much! If I haven't read this correctly then forgive me, I sometimes mix up real life with my dreams.

[Joe C]

Am I reading this right? You said in your first post that you held a state license, and then in your last post that you do not? I'm a bit confused, but that doesn't really matter. You would be advised to get your proper permits in place before you start distilling. Just some advice as your state(and perhaps the Feds) will probably come look at your setup when you do apply for a permit, and it shouldn't be looking like your using it yet! Usually you get your federal permit first. Do you hold a federal permit? I assume not since you dont know what your bond is. This is really none of my buisness, but I was confused by your posts. Someone had just posted a link to a story of a distillery that was operating without their state license in place, and the state came out and dumped ALL ther booze and I believe they were facing some criminal charges. You have some big hurdles ahead of you before you need to worry about your labels too much! If I haven't read this correctly then forgive me, I sometimes mix up real life with my dreams.

First, and most importantly, I am no where close to having, using, or running a still. But thanks for pointing out those possible legal ramifications. I kind of figured that. I have a recipe, a lot of homework and research under my belt, and a bunch of state, local and federal applications and paperwork in front of me. As for the inconsistency you mention in my two posts, for the sake of saving time and explanation, I stated in my first post that I have my PA Limited Distillery lic, which I do not. I have a completed PA LD Lic application and all state requirements fulfilled and a check sitting in front of me that is ready to be sent in. I should have stated, "lets say I have my PA LD lic, can you answer this question that I have regarding fed regs on labels.....". Had I just mentioned that I am new and looking to start up a liquor making business, I assumed I would have received a ton of responses stating "you have to go through your state for proper permits......" . To spare time and unnecessary explanations, I gave the theoretical, not realizing this would become the topic of discussion. So, to answer your question, yes you were reading this right, and I apologize for confusing you. As stated in my posts, I am a new start up and I have researched all State Laws and requirements and I continue to research Federal regulations and Local coding and regulations, doing my due diligence to assure that I will be operating by the letter of the law. In addition to this, however, as any responsible business entrepreneur would agree, I am researching every aspect and facet that I may encounter in starting up a business in this industry, including start up costs, maintenance costs, expenditures, marketing, tools, and operation costs. So when you suggest that I am way to early in the game to think about labels too much, I would have to disagree. I have researched hour and hours, days and days on the internet, on the phone, at my municipal offices in an attempt to identify any potential hurdle I may encounter, every cost I may incur, equipment options, ingredients costs, etc. In doing this, I have a realistic understanding of whether or not i can move forward with this venture, BEFORE i start blindly sending checks to the government to get permits for something i may not even be able to successfully operate. When i failed to find a suitable answer or explanation on my own, i turned to this forum for help. I was lucky enough to receive a very helpful response to my main issue at hand (the thing about the label regulations), from a generous poster. He was able to give me direction that i have waited hours on hold with the TTB trying to obtain.

So, i hope this helps clear the confusion. Maybe your not mixing real life with your dreams, maybe you just didn't clearly understand my motive for my post. Maybe you thought there was some other motive i had? Not sure, but if your post was intented to help, thank you.

[bluestar]

Generally, you get the fed licenses and permits FIRST, and then you get the state. Most states require the fed permit in hand in and maybe also a COLA to obtain a state license. Don't know if that is specifically true for PA.

[Scrounge]

Hey Joe C. Your right, it's never to soon to work out all the things other than permitting. I wasn't trying to bust your balls. You need to have a look at the TTB website and get up to date on the requirments for permitting at the federal level. Your state permitt won't do you any good without a federal one as well. Once you have jumped through the Feds hoops the state should be comparatively easier since you will have already compiled all the required info. Just trying to spell out to you that you need a fed permit to be an operating DSP, so pulling the trigger on that state permit would only spend that 2200$ sooner than needed. And if that's a yearly fee, then the clock would be ticking on when you have to pay it again. Get your fed permit, it's free, and the most time consuming. Then get your state. And when u have pending applications, keep that still nice and clean. That's all. Good luck to you!

[Joe C]

Hey Joe C. Your right, it's never to soon to work out all the things other than permitting. I wasn't trying to bust your balls. You need to have a look at the TTB website and get up to date on the requirments for permitting at the federal level. Your state permitt won't do you any good without a federal one as well. Once you have jumped through the Feds hoops the state should be comparatively easier since you will have already compiled all the required info. Just trying to spell out to you that you need a fed permit to be an operating DSP, so pulling the trigger on that state permit would only spend that 2200$ sooner than needed. And if that's a yearly fee, then the clock would be ticking on when you have to pay it again. Get your fed permit, it's free, and the most time consuming. Then get your state. And when u have pending applications, keep that still nice and clean. That's all. Good luck to you!

Well I do appreciate the advice and info Scrounge. I definitely seemed to have started the process somewhat backwards, having began fulfilling the state requirements first. It was almost too good to be true in that it seemed very simple to get them what was needed. Then, luckily I stumbled upon this forum in which I was able to receive valuable info regarding the federal rules and regs, which are as you say, a little more complex. I have readjusted my approach and I am now in full court press to get my ducks in a line with the feds so I can proceed and start producing as soon as possible. I am the first to admit that I am a full blown rookie in this arena and I do appreciate the advice and info that you and others have offered.

[Joe C]

Generally, you get the fed licenses and permits FIRST, and then you get the state. Most states require the fed permit in hand in and maybe also a COLA to obtain a state license. Don't know if that is specifically true for PA.

Makes sense. Thanks Bluestar.