What ever happened to iStill?

[Still_Holler]

I just got back from the iStill training in Wisconsin and it far exceeded my expectations.  I expected the class to mostly be about how to use the iStill machine but it was really the best class I have taken on theory of distillation, mashing, aging and fermentation.  We ran both the iStill 500 and the new minis and made some whiskey, gin and bitters during the class, so it had a good hands on component as well. 

We have ordered a iStill 2000 to upgrade our distillery with and will be using it for start to finish process of grain mashing, fermentation and distillation.  It seems you really can't beat it for ease of use, versatility and precise control over your process and flavors from start to finish.  We ordered with indirect heaters and cooling radiator for temp control during mashing and fermentation.  Compared to the price of upgrading all our equipment to 2000 liter, iStill seems like the best solution as well as a big time saver in not having to transfer the mash and clean multiple vessels, pumps and hoses ec...

I will update with our experiences once we have our 2000 installed and operating.

[dorkjackson]

16 hours ago, Still_Holler said:

I just got back from the iStill training in Wisconsin and it far exceeded my expectations.  I expected the class to mostly be about how to use the iStill machine but it was really the best class I have taken on theory of distillation, mashing, aging and fermentation.  We ran both the iStill 500 and the new minis and made some whiskey, gin and bitters during the class, so it had a good hands on component as well. 

We have ordered a iStill 2000 to upgrade our distillery with and will be using it for start to finish process of grain mashing, fermentation and distillation.  It seems you really can't beat it for ease of use, versatility and precise control over your process and flavors from start to finish.  We ordered with indirect heaters and cooling radiator for temp control during mashing and fermentation.  Compared to the price of upgrading all our equipment to 2000 liter, iStill seems like the best solution as well as a big time saver in not having to transfer the mash and clean multiple vessels, pumps and hoses ec...

I will update with our experiences once we have our 2000 installed and operating.

Still_Holler, which distillery in Madison has the iStill? I'm not too far from there and I'd like to check it out. Thanks.

[Still_Holler]

.

3 hours ago, dorkjackson said:

Still_Holler, which distillery in Madison has the iStill? I'm not too far from there and I'd like to check it out. Thanks.

Two Tall is the name, it is located in Sun Prairie just outside Madison. I believe the are open Saturdays from 1:00-5:00. https://twotalldistilling.com/

[Thatch]

2 hours ago, Odin said:

200 liters (550 gallon) per hour. That's the production rate per hour.

Might be a math error here

[Dsking416]

200 liters is just under 53 gallons actually.

[richard1]

Looks great.  I am surprised however that you have not used baffles in the stack so as to get better / more efficient cooling.

[jeffw]

10 hours ago, Odin said:

Another amazing innovation, we have been working on for quite some time! The Reflux Capacitor, we call it. Yes, like Back to the Future's Flux Capacitor, only suited for the craft distiller. It boosts column performance with around 25%. For more reading, please see:

 

https://istillblog.com/…/istill-innovation-reflux-capacitor/

 

Regards, Odin.

Hate to sound stupid...but I don't get it.  What are you talking about Doc Brown?  Pumping distilled spirit back in?

[Sator Square Distillery]

Hey Odin, I follow Dark Sky Distillery on Instagram and saw them unpacking an iStill the other day. Looks great!

[Silk City Distillers]

Time for the iAuger.

[Foreshot]

Is this realtime or every X seconds or minutes? Does it get tracked? Can you trigger alerts/actions?

[FijiSpirits]

Questions questions questions!! (And wow!! Cool stuff)

 

1.  is the large extractor basically a Soxhlet extractor too?  How is it loaded and cleaned out(do I climb up there and empty it by hand or can I dump it or flush it easily?).  Is it separately powered from the still or dependent on the still for heat?  Can it operate independently from the still?

 

2.  I get the idea behind using one machine to mash ferment and distill but doesn’t that limit production if you can only afford one still?  Am I expect to have 4 stills with a system like this?  How does this play out in real life?

 

3. On the fermenter does it just monitor the ferment (gravity, ph, temps) or does it also make adjustments to temp and ph?  Our ph adjustments are constantly needed so this is a big deal for us.  Will it mix a ferment if we just dump ingredients in?  How large of solids will it mix(just sugar or will it do grains and fruit as well?) 

 

4.  What is the process to switch from a vodka Column to a rum column?  Just remove some or all of the helicoils?

 

5. Am I understanding that you use a low watt density electric direct heating as the base offering?  What is the indirect heating method? (Steam, oil, shielded elements?). What are the power input requirements for both on a 2000?

 

6. Rapid aging feature.  How would this work in a production environment?  Would I require a separate still or machine just for this process?  How long does the process take and how large are the batches?

 

sorry for so many detailed questions. I have gone thru your blog and website but can’t seem to find these answers. Please forgive me for being technical-detail-nerd-guy

 

thanks!

Steve 

[FijiSpirits]

Wow!  Thanks for taking the time to explain this all to me. 

 

So is the extractor powered by the still or separately powered?  

 

we have a setup working now but it’s still small. We are in the planning stages to upgrade and my long term goals include automation of as many processes as possible. 

 

I can forsee the 2000 filling the main need but it’ll be working most of the month.  Maybe we could run aging over the weekends more or less unattended. 

 

I wonder if the masher could be pressed into aging service?  This way I could mash or mix ferments some of the time and age the rest of the time. 

 

Do you make a fermentation automation system system where I could apply it to my existing fermenters and work with your existing software architecture?

 

do you have an iPhone/iPad app for your system?

 

my thoughts are that with a retrofit system and tablet/phone app software support (skip pc/Mac entirely) that you have the technology waiting to disrupt the whole industry.  The one caveat is the Capex for entry into your technology. 

[FijiSpirits]

On 6/8/2019 at 4:53 AM, Odin said:

And just to add to that ... for craft distillers that don't use iStills, may it actually be the App that is the more interesting innovation? I think it is ... because - in combination with the bluetooth thermometer probe and per second corrected for air pressure - it gives an unprecedented amount of control over distillation runs. You can do / set-up your own runs. Or download one of the pre-designed recipes (brandy, rum, whiskey, gin). The app monitors temperatures, corrects for air pressure where and when necessary, and informs you on when your cuts are due ... And it can operate on any still of any size.

What do you think?

Regards, Odin.

When and where can we get this?  I’m working on automation now so this is timely. 

[FijiSpirits]

We are currently running a 11 plate column still with 150l boiler

[Foreshot]

Can you do grain in/out? If so is it easy to switch?

[Skaalvenn]

8 hours ago, Odin said:

Some thoughts on continuous fermentation:

https://istillblog.com/2019/10/15/continuous-fermentation/

 

Regards, Odin.

I don't think it's quite that easy. Everything I have ever read about different methods of continuous fermentation is that controlling yeast mutations and infections eventually becomes a nightmare.

[FijiSpirits]

12 hours ago, Odin said:

Some thoughts on continuous fermentation:

https://istillblog.com/2019/10/15/continuous-fermentation/

 

Regards, Odin.

 

 

I like the basic concept for my operation. Our ferments take more like 7-8 days so we don’t lose temperature control, so maybe two fermenters would be needed. 

 

I feel like even with 4-5 day ferments you’d want a second smaller “safety” fermenter to use for lag times and those times when you want to clean the main fermenter and restart the batch. 

 

Maybe instead of a fermenter large enough to do 4-5 distillations the second would be only large enough to do 2 distillations and would be alternated every three days with the larger. 

 

The added “safety” factors of cleaning and lag time security would mean your ferments were dry most of the time and would mean that if the ferment in one tank needed time to catch up or be cleaned that you wouldn’t have to shut down for 4 days to do it. 

[richard1]

Don't like the look of the glass on the left.  No character.

[Still_Holler]

I'm reading the forums while our iStill 2000 runs out corn whiskey destined for Bourbon. We have been doing mash, ferment, and distillation directly in the iStill for the past two months.

Hi Odin, Happy New Year!

[Silk City Distillers]

Mythbusting your mythbuster article on grain mill size.

Good info but not necessarily all accurate, raw grains throw this for a loop.

Malted grain can generally be milled more coarse than unmalted grain without a significant impact to yield.  However, raw grain will see a sizable impact to yield.  For us - coarse roller mill maize vs coarse hammer mill “flour” was a 20% difference in product yield on a proof gallon basis - relatively significant.  We see the same with raw rye, wheat, oats as well.

Raw grain through a roller mill is generally pretty abusive on the roller grooving/knurling as well - and typically generates much more dust than malted.  Many hammer mill styles have built in dust collectors vs roller mills that almost never do.  From a safety classification perspective - both mill styles are identical, there is no distinction.

It’s about using the right tool for the job.  If you are a pure malt shop, roller milling is a no brainer, especially if you have intentions of lautering.

If you are focusing on the American styles, a hammer mill is far more useful.

If you wish to be king of all whiskies, have both.

 

[Skaalvenn]

2 hours ago, Odin said:

Twenty-one iStill innovations: features, benefits, and how they compare:

https://istillblog.com/2020/02/24/comparison-istill-vs-traditional-still/

Regards, Odin.

So, I read all your posts and just want to chime in with some observations and questions.

(numbers are in reference to the list of features you linked)

1. Square boiler. A properly placed agitator on a round tank will not vortex and will achieve ideal agitation. There's a reason round is the standard and it's not because engineers weren't clever enough to think of a square.

2. I believe wide or narrow have the same evaporation rates and that it's all about BTUs transferred (someone can correct me on this).

3. As someone who spent the first 4 years on electric, I'm so absolutely thrilled that I've moved to steam.  We are not a large operation by any means, but switching our main still to steam has saved us $700 per month in electricity bills, and our new steam powered vodka still should knock another $400-500 off.  Roughly $14,000 of revenue saved each year, and we have reduced heatup times from 100a electric by about 4 hours each day.  Our steam boiler will pay for itself within just a couple years, much sooner if we consider labor and increased production capacity.  I also don't have to worry about electrical components causing a multitude of issues.

4. You say your still creates maillard reaction, but a traditional still does not. Can you back that up with science?

5. As far as I understand it, mixing speed has no effect on the rate of boil.

9. You make multiple wild claims.  1. Copper contamination.  In a properly designed still, there should be no copper contamination.  You also claim that copper rusts?  Your stills have copper, so are you saying that iStills rust and poison customers spirits?

[Skaalvenn]

2 hours ago, Odin said:

Thanks for sharing. Sorry if this post offended you or anyone else. That was not the goal, and maybe I should have refrained from posting this here. Not here to start a war and not here to explain myself. I'll dive into your questions anyhow, and give you explanations, but also want to make sure it does not become a "discussion". I remember how my views on copper can be perceived as antagonistic. We all make decisions based on the best info available and the feeling that something appeals to us or not. Head and heart. Same with me, when I decide to prioritize certain design specifics. So a one time answer, but no discusion. At least not from my part.

1. That is not my experience. Whenever I see what I call a traditional still with an agitator, it moves around fast, has filling levels well below 83% (nett/gross) and - if it has a sight glass - you can see the wash being thrown around so high that the sigh glass, that should be well above liquid levels is constantly washed dirty and clean with wash and grains. But if you found one that works, for you and that prevents vortex formation and violent gas bed intrusions, I am fine with that, of course.

2. Imagine X BTU being evaporated in a narrow boiler vs. a wider boiler. The boil-up will be higher in the narrow design. Yes, evaporation is the same, but the gas bed above the wider still will be more stable, less disturbed by a high boil-up. Just as with point 1 disturbance of the gas bed from which the riser or column draws is a negative. What we see as heads, hearts, tails, are components mixed into water/ethanol mix with higher or lower boiling points that correlate with higher and lower vapor speeds. The more stable the gas bed above the liquid is, the better the column can draw up gasses (via cooling by the dephlag or column or product cooler), without having to deal with interference and vapor speed variability (basically mini bursts of high/low air pressure due to aggressive mixing and/or shit flying through the gas bed from which the column draws). The more stable the gas bed, the bigger control over the smearing of heads and tails. The wider the variety in vapor speeds, the higher the (constant, additional) smearing of heads and tails will be. Since heads and tails smearing into hearts contribute to 80% of total flavor, we are not just talking hearts yield and toxicity, but also those vapor speeds (when variable) having constant (yet unmanaged) influences on flavor profile.

3. Glad to see you are happy with your steam boiler, mate. The reason why we offer an integrated (and insulated) solution, again, has to do with vapor speed and its management, since it is the key to reproducability of high quality spirits. In an uninsulated still, if you push the power there will only be a slight increase in vapor speeds. With insulation, and by integrating the heat source, we are able to turn power management directly into higher or lower vapor speeds. Since they result directly in smearing more or less heads and tails into hearts (thus affecting the flavor profile tremendously), I find the direct, integrated solution important. Again, if you are happy with your solution, there is no problem. Just explaining my thinking and reasoning here.

4. What I say is that a directly fired boiler can help create the Maillard Reaction and an indirect heating system does not. Research? Tons of it. If you find it important, may I advise you do your own? I can tell you from my own experience that it makes the trip so much more fun! Potatoes, boiled vs. fried, may be a good starting point. Or else please research how steaks are cooked to perfection.

5. Mixing does not have an influence on the rate of the boil. It has a big influence on filling levels and on the stability of the gas bed from which the column or riser draw, as specified above.

9. I do not have the habit of making wild claims. Research we do in our lab and research done by the Edinburgh University in Scotland clearly show that copper stills lead to copper particle contamination in the final drink. The less a still is used, the longer it is exposed to oxygen. The longer copper is exposed to oxygen, the more it oxidizes. Some called it copper oxidation, others call it rust, just as with iron. Research on Scottish copper potstills, that are in almost continuous use, show already high copper particle contamination in Scottish whiskies. Copper plays a potential essential part in some drinks. And in others it does not play a role at all. Gins, flavored vodka's for instance. The reason we have a copper waffle is that you can put it in or take it out, dependent if you need it. We put it at the very bottom of the column to prevent copper contamination as much as possible.

Skaalvenn, a lengthy answer, but I wanted to take the time and do the effort of explaining here what a table cannot do (without becoming unreadable). If you are interested in these topics of still design, please know that I post many articles on the iStill Blog that discuss the questions you had. For more reading: https://istillblog.com/. There is a search function that's pretty helpful!

Thanks, Odin.

 

I'm not offended in the slightest, I just read your posts and it sounds more and more like scientific buzz words being thrown around without anything to back them up than anything.  I have one of your older istill models, and it simply doesn't do what you always claimed they did.  I know you separated from the company that used to build them, but that brings up the question of your honesty in advertising prior to doing fabrication in house. 

1.  You just need thttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj9SL6A61qoo observe the mixing of a tank designed by someone who has some knowledge about mixer design, or who has watched a 2 minute video on mixing.  A properly designed system will not have any splashing, vortexing, or dead spots.  See below:

youtu.be/Sj9SL6A61qo

3. I understand the benefit of being able to dial in and maintain an amount of heat--a properly designed steam system can do just that. To say that electric is superior is just spreading misinformation and people have figured out how to control the precise amount of BTUs with steam long ago.  I will say that electric WAS beneficial when starting since I didn't have to buy an expensive steam boiler, but any change or move with electric required thousands of dollars spent to build more control panels, install more electrical lines, and add higher amp panels to handle the load.  Going to steam eliminated basically all those costs (in addition to the previously stated benefits).

4. I am quite familiar with cooking and what the maillard reaction is, to say that this doesn't happen in a different still is quite bogus.  In fact, I'd argue that the ability to distill on the grain results in the ability to have a product with more flavors than using direct elements.

9.  I did a brief google search and found nothing from the Edinburgh University and copper levels in spirits. Can you share the article for us?

 

[DrDistillation]

On 2/14/2020 at 4:01 PM, Odin said:

"A big invest is being made in iStill technology, a company that has some really fun ideas about “fast aging” products"

Do these stills come with a time machine or something?  No such thing as fast aging.

[JailBreak]

3 hours ago, DrDistillation said:

Do these stills come with a time machine or something?  No such thing as fast aging.

I think that they are referring to accelerated maturation techniques. Semantics really

[DrDistillation]

Most of these techniques have been tried many times over the years by many, with no long term benefit, just short term waste of time and resources.  You can certainly speed up rest periods with moderate heat and mixing.  You can also force extraction through heat and cold as well, but I'm not sure you can call this maturation and certainly not aging.

Is it worth additional equipment cost, ongoing energy & labor costs to speed up a rest period for a white spirit from say 30 days to 5 days?

You can use heat upfront, use UV, use ozone, use ultrasound, use vacuum and pressure, etc  but they are all short term solutions and with flavored spirits such as whiskey, brandy or rum often create a worse spirit long term after it's been in a barrel for a couple of years.  You name it, been tested by all the large distilleries over the years.