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Odin on Gin

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Hi Johnny,

I'd always go for the best gns possible. If it smells after dilution, you need a better product to start with.

Regards, Odin.

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Hi Odin,

And do we have an opinon on the best GNS in europe? or maybe the ones to avoid? quite selfishly I am most interested in the UK.. so Brenntag, Alcohols UK, KimiaUK, langley distillery, ethanol.co.uk, ethimex....

so far I havent tried any as it would be quite an expensive exercise, I was going to go with KimiaUK as rhey supply both organic and in 25litre containers (small startup here) relatively competitive.

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@needmorstuff : you can ask these suppliers for a sample, that's what I've done before I decided.

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I'll see what they say.. presumably any sample is small. how does one objectively establish the good from the bad? just water down and taste/nose perhaps?

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on louching, when you dilute the gin to the point where louching dissipates - wouldn't the addition of a mixer then cause the oils to come back out? or is it the case that once the oils are dissolved in the alcohol that they never "undissolve"

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4 minutes ago, needmorstuff said:

on louching, when you dilute the gin to the point where louching dissipates - wouldn't the addition of a mixer then cause the oils to come back out?

It certainly can. But that's not always such a bad thing. Many gins (martin miller comes to mind) louche slightly upon dilution.

 

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ok  - as long as its stable in the bottle i guess thats the main thing... TBH it could be the water I am using as well.. easy to test though, I will add some neutral to it. I am not using and RO filter yet..

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Regarding ultrasound, I now have a strong feeling whatever the actual reason for impact of ultrasound, it's a temporary phenomenon.

Did an experiment some two years back where I treated 3 bottles of identical distillate to ultrasound, kept 3 bottles as control, and then used them in a double blind.  Used 4 or the 6 bottles, with two left sealed and forgot about.  These were 1 year old whiskies.

Recently opened and tasted the two bottles, and they were identical, impossible to differentiate.

The double blind showed slight preference for the treated distillate, barely statistically significant.  However, more interesting was that participants were able to clearly distinguish the two.  For some participants, we used 3 samples, and in addition to asking the taster preference, we had them attempt to match the identical distillates (two of the samples were identical).

I informally replicated the double blind with the remaining samples, and identification of the identical samples was no better than random.

My theory on this is that the main impact of ultrasound may have something to do with the elimination or impact to the quantities of dissolved gasses in the distillate.  Over time, dissolved gasses in the bottled distillates were able to re-equilibrate -  non-airtight closures, headspace gases, etc.  So while there is a real impact to perception of flavor, it doesn't last.

The expulsion of dissolved gasses could be somewhat positive as a flavor protectant in a gin, if for example you were able to force out dissolved oxygen, in the process and purge the headspace with co2.

Just thought I'd share.

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Silk,

Interesting observations.  Any chance that what has happened is the spirits not treated with US have finally matured to the same level as the treated?  Is it your perception that what you have after three years in both cases is the same immature spirit you took off your still 3 years ago?

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3 hours ago, needmorstuff said:

I am not using and RO filter yet..

I would suggest that's a purchase you should make sooner than later.

 

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8 minutes ago, indyspirits said:

I would suggest that's a purchase you should make sooner than later.

 

You are right on the money! I came to that conclusion earlier today.

Talking filters... I am going to go with a vacuum bottle filler, i am in two minds whether to also get an inline filter with it as well.. any thought on that?

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Enolmatic, cheapest plastic model for wine bottles, 0.2micron inline filter. And get the optional Mignon kit if you want to fill tiny bottles as well.

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Thanks Paul. I had been advised to go for enolmatic but to go for the specific spirit one with stainless steel and suitable hose. 

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Yes the stainless steel version is a good choice, although I know quite a few distilleries which use the plastic one - polypropylene (PP) can withstand ethanol without a problem. Do remember that you can't get the "Tandem Filter Housing" in stainless steel, and they advertise it as being suitable for filtering spirits 😉

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6 minutes ago, paulNL said:

Yes the stainless steel version is a good choice, although I know quite a few distilleries which use the plastic one - polypropylene (PP) can withstand ethanol without a problem. Do remember that you can't get the "Tandem Filter Housing" in stainless steel, and they advertise it as being suitable for filtering spirits 😉

good enough for me Paul - thanks again, and the .2 micron won't filter out flavour from my Gin?

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I've never noticed any loss in flavour while filtering gin, jenever and ouzo/anis with it. For whisky or other wood finished products I would use a 5 micron filter followed by a 1 micron filter.

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On 10/4/2018 at 7:24 AM, Silk City Distillers said:

Regarding ultrasound, I now have a strong feeling whatever the actual reason for impact of ultrasound, it's a temporary phenomenon.

Did an experiment some two years back where I treated 3 bottles of identical distillate to ultrasound, kept 3 bottles as control, and then used them in a double blind.  Used 4 or the 6 bottles, with two left sealed and forgot about.  These were 1 year old whiskies.

Recently opened and tasted the two bottles, and they were identical, impossible to differentiate.

The double blind showed slight preference for the treated distillate, barely statistically significant.  However, more interesting was that participants were able to clearly distinguish the two.  For some participants, we used 3 samples, and in addition to asking the taster preference, we had them attempt to match the identical distillates (two of the samples were identical).

I informally replicated the double blind with the remaining samples, and identification of the identical samples was no better than random.

My theory on this is that the main impact of ultrasound may have something to do with the elimination or impact to the quantities of dissolved gasses in the distillate.  Over time, dissolved gasses in the bottled distillates were able to re-equilibrate -  non-airtight closures, headspace gases, etc.  So while there is a real impact to perception of flavor, it doesn't last.

The expulsion of dissolved gasses could be somewhat positive as a flavor protectant in a gin, if for example you were able to force out dissolved oxygen, in the process and purge the headspace with co2.

Just thought I'd share.

Silk,

Interesting observations.  Any chance that what has happened is the spirits not treated with US have finally matured to the same level as the treated?  Is it your perception that what you have after three years in both cases is the same immature spirit you took off your still 3 years ago?

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It was a one year old aged whiskey that was treated with ultrasound, after dumping.  It was not new make.

There was a perceptible difference in the treated/untreated whiskies, if there was some permanent impact, I would imagine that the difference would have still been perceptible, since both the treated and untreated were subject to the same resting time.

Spare me the criticisms of having "done it wrong".   :)

 

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1 hour ago, Silk City Distillers said:

It was a one year old aged whiskey that was treated with ultrasound, after dumping.  It was not new make.

Did you conduct a triangle test immediately after US treatment or just a few years after?  

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13 minutes ago, Welshbrew said:

Why filter when bottling?

If you need to filter at this stage, maybe its too late?

It's easier to have one last particle filtration right before bottling than to keep any equipment your product may come into contact with between filtering and bottling (bottling tank, pumps, product lines, etc.) 100% free of dust particles.

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9 hours ago, indyspirits said:

Did you conduct a triangle test immediately after US treatment or just a few years after?  

Immediately, and I'm fairly certain it's repeatable.

 

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On 10/4/2018 at 7:02 AM, indyspirits said:

It certainly can. But that's not always such a bad thing. Many gins (martin miller comes to mind) louche slightly upon dilution.

 

The birectifier is a good cheap way to analyze small samples if you have 100 ml of absolute alcohol. A gin that louches in the first fraction may not be properly cut and there may be an excess of ordinary terpenes. Proper cutting can create the phenomenon of contrast enhancement and will make all your botanicals pop a little more. The best way to learn this is by deconstructing role models and examining their fractions. The cuts made for gin may also help to clean up the neutral spirit to a degree. I suspect a problem that some distillers may face is that their gin is sharing a still with another product and in the beginning of their gin run they are inheriting tails from the run of a previous spirit.

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We are currently helping one of our Japanese customers with designing their gin. It will be a totally amazing London Dry Style. Very happy with the results!

Regards, Odin.

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