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Plastic vs Stainless tanks

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On 2/12/2018 at 1:23 PM, Scott.S said:

OK I have to back peddle - i was reading the regs and then read this article: https://www.dalkita.com/prohibition-on-flammable-liquids-in-plastic-totes/  sorry for my cofnusion but this is indeed where I got my info..

Scott

Thanks. So it is good to keep in mind that the concentration of ethanol changes the flammable classification. Based on the NFPA chart you show, if you have low-wines or spirit with less than 43% alc by weight (about 54% alc by volume), the classification is II, and rigid plastic IBC totes are allowed to 793 gallons, PE containers to 119 gallons. There are other provisions somewhere that might limit a plastic container to 60 gallons (I am searching my references for that). Your reference is focussing on shipping and storing GNS, as it should, since much of the thread here is discussing GNS. But I thought to mention this because a few referred to high-proof spirits, without a specific proof as a cutoff.

FOLLOW UP: Reviewing my sources, I see a confusion between classification at that concentration for flash point, versus classification for storage requirement under a beverage alcohol exception.

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19 minutes ago, bluestar said:

Thanks. So it is good to keep in mind that the concentration of ethanol changes the flammable classification. Based on the NFPA chart you show, if you have low-wines or spirit with less than 43% alc by weight (about 54% alc by volume), the classification is II, and rigid plastic IBC totes are allowed to 793 gallons, PE containers to 119 gallons. There are other provisions somewhere that might limit a plastic container to 60 gallons (I am searching my references for that). Your reference is focussing on shipping and storing GNS, as it should, since much of the thread here is discussing GNS. But I thought to mention this because a few referred to high-proof spirits, without a specific proof as a cutoff.

Thanks for posting that info Bluestar.  I didn't know that.  it will help me offer my customers the correct eqiupment for their needs  I'm going to put it into my important info for customers folder.

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Flash Point----Ethanol

Q&A from :https://www.dalkita.com/prohibition-on-flammable-liquids-in-plastic-totes/

Matthew Taylor-Rennert says

January 17, 2018 at 3:15 PM

Correct. Flammable alcohol over ~ 16% ABV should really be stored in metal containers if over 5.3 gallons, by the letter of the code.

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Here is a little table on the Flash Point of Ethanol:  Temp vs. % by Weight  ------   Note this is for Ethanol not "heads" or any other mixture you may be using.

image.png.9af9306433a57af6ee603fd9773c41b5.png

 

 

 

Ethanol Flash Point.GIF

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The 54% is really an interesting number. Brian, can you source your recommended "should" be stored in metal above 16% ABV. In addition to codes, there also has to be a taste effect at some point. I have been to distilleries that stored in plastic (I do not know what the ABV was in storage), but their spirits has a plastic tinge to them. While storage smaller amounts of low wines, which could be diluted to 50% say to meet guildelines make a lot of sense financially, I would be mostly concerned with taste, whether it saved money or not and was legal. Has anyone had experience storing in plastic that resulted in off-flavors, also anyone storing in plastic that doesn't have off flavors? We currently have 100% SS tanks, but I would get 1-2 IBC for short term storage. 

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15 hours ago, Southernhighlander said:

Thanks for posting that info Bluestar.  I didn't know that.  it will help me offer my customers the correct eqiupment for their needs  I'm going to put it into my important info for customers folder.

Well, I am reviewing what I said again, because that source is in conflict with another source. There are some versions of the codes (which may be out of date) that had exceptions for beverage alcohol. So I would have your customers review with local code authorities, since it is the prevailing code (and version) at their location that is valid.

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12 hours ago, Avonak said:

The 54% is really an interesting number. Brian, can you source your recommended "should" be stored in metal above 16% ABV. In addition to codes, there also has to be a taste effect at some point. I have been to distilleries that stored in plastic (I do not know what the ABV was in storage), but their spirits has a plastic tinge to them. While storage smaller amounts of low wines, which could be diluted to 50% say to meet guildelines make a lot of sense financially, I would be mostly concerned with taste, whether it saved money or not and was legal. Has anyone had experience storing in plastic that resulted in off-flavors, also anyone storing in plastic that doesn't have off flavors? We currently have 100% SS tanks, but I would get 1-2 IBC for short term storage. 

I may have to partially retract, I think Brian is correct, at that concentration it is Ic classification, and under regular flammable hazard, the plastic container would not be allowed under NFPA 30. But I had been looking at a document that had a 60 gallon exception for beverage alcohol, but that may have been under a completely different code, and may be out of date.

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On 2/14/2018 at 11:45 AM, Brian said:

Flash Point----Ethanol

Q&A from :https://www.dalkita.com/prohibition-on-flammable-liquids-in-plastic-totes/

Matthew Taylor-Rennert says

January 17, 2018 at 3:15 PM

Correct. Flammable alcohol over ~ 16% ABV should really be stored in metal containers if over 5.3 gallons, by the letter of the code.

``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````

Here is a little table on the Flash Point of Ethanol:  Temp vs. % by Weight  ------   Note this is for Ethanol not "heads" or any other mixture you may be using.

image.png.9af9306433a57af6ee603fd9773c41b5.png

 

 

 

Ethanol Flash Point.GIF

This is a good table that I used in negotiations with the fire marshal, BUT keep in mind that this is a table of ethanol by WEIGHT, not VOLUME.  The numbers change a little between alcohol by weight and volume, quick converter at http://www.probrewer.com/tools/percent-alcohol-conversion-calculator/.  Example, 50% abv = 39% by weight.

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On 2/14/2018 at 1:32 PM, Avonak said:

The 54% is really an interesting number. Brian, can you source your recommended "should" be stored in metal above 16% ABV. In addition to codes, there also has to be a taste effect at some point. I have been to distilleries that stored in plastic (I do not know what the ABV was in storage), but their spirits has a plastic tinge to them. While storage smaller amounts of low wines, which could be diluted to 50% say to meet guildelines make a lot of sense financially, I would be mostly concerned with taste, whether it saved money or not and was legal. Has anyone had experience storing in plastic that resulted in off-flavors, also anyone storing in plastic that doesn't have off flavors? We currently have 100% SS tanks, but I would get 1-2 IBC for short term storage. 

You cannot store in plastic totes of anykind, however spirits are transported in HDPE totes everyday.  There is no plastic taste whatsoever becouse HDPE is inert in ethonal which is why HDPE gaskets are used in many stills and why spirits are transported in HDPE totes.  

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