Avonak Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 I am looking for some help designing the correct size tube-in-tube heat exchanger. We would like to cool from mashing temp to fermentation temps in a few hours, 2-4 would be fine. Mash size is 1500 gal and we have a chiller with 48F water available for the coolant. Is it better to design for a single pass or simple recirculate the hot fluid until the lower temp is reached, The 2nd seems the easier way to handle lots of specs and not overshoot the temp. Also looking for reputable vendors, SS, sanitary connections, skid or wall mounting are both possible. Also would like to see some in action if you have pictures. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisSD Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 Avonak, Give me a shout when you have some time. We can help you calculate the right size and manufacture it to spec for optimal use. At that point, I'll get you set up with references and others using our chillers. Cheers! Chris www.stilldragon.com chris@stilldragon.com 806-206-5861 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captnKB Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 I know Paul @Southernhighlander makes them. I have not seen one in action, but ive heard his are solid. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernhighlander Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 Avonak, The below is one of our tube in tube heat exchangers. This model will crash cool 300 gallons of corn mash in around 30 minutes. For a qoute please email paul@distillery-equipment.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MG Thermal Consulting Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 Heat exchangers like Paul's work great, but many see the time stretched out because their cooling water can't remain cold enough for a long enough time. I usually point clients to a chiller with a reservoir to accomplish the task, in your case about a 30 HP chiller and 3000 gal reservoir. The photo on my ID is of a 40 HP with 2500 Gal tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernhighlander Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 Avonak, Mike is the man when it comes to chillers and cooling processes. He has done work for several of my customers and everyone seems very happy with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViolentBlue Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 I am the original designer of these wort coolers, been building them for years with many happy customers. not sure how my drawings got out into the public. https://www.cageandsons.com/type-aux-wort-cooler I have several of these units in stock ready to ship Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hudson bay distillers Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 violent blue where in southern alberta are you located Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViolentBlue Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 Lethbridge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hudson bay distillers Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 right on thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernhighlander Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 Steve, That basic tube in tube design has been around longer than you have. If the original design was yours you would have a patent on it. My design is a variation on a much older design just like yours is, except that my design pictured above is different than yours in that it has more heat exchange surface area as well as a heavier frame. With the addition of our heavy duty casters I think that we have one of the best tube in tube heat exchangers for the price. The ones that I have built overseas start at less than $3,000.00 If we build them at my facility here in MO they start at around $4,000.00 for American Made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernhighlander Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 Below are some similar ones. http://www.wortcoolers.com/XLG_shell_and_tube.html https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/double-pipe-wort-chiller-calculations.466688/ https://www.pinterest.com/pin/111534528244960922/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernhighlander Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 Steve, I like the tray and hooks for hose storage on your design. I'm not sure if the tray is worthwhile but I think that I will add some hooks for hoses to my design. In fact we are going to retrofit all of the ones that we have in stock and keep the price the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenlyon Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 I have one of Steve's wort chillers. It has been great to work with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViolentBlue Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 yes the idea of a tube in tube heat exchange has been around for a very long time, I'm talking about a specific design, that has been copied to exact dimension. Paul you seem to know far more about my design than I do yours. by law there must be a 20% change in overall dimensions and features for it to be considered a new design, instead of a copy. this is not the first design I have drawn up that has been copied, released to the public and sold by other vendors here. Oh well the only thing to do is push forward with new innovation, and stay ahead of the curve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patio29Dadio Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 I ordered one of Paul's heat tube in tube exchangers. I will report back once we start using it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klattig Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 On 8/24/2018 at 1:48 PM, Southernhighlander said: Avonak, The below is one of our tube in tube heat exchangers. This model will crash cool 300 gallons of corn mash in around 30 minutes. For a qoute please email paul@distillery-equipment.com Paul, I've been chewing on this idea for awhile - we would like cool the spent wash from the stripping distillation, and using this waste heat, pre-heat the incoming beer for the next run. Seems like we could save some power costs, and more importantly reduce heat up time. Do you think spent wash could flow through the outer shell? We have a 2" FIP that generates quite a lot of suction... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackheart Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 We have a Steve Cage wort chiller and a cold reservoir set up like Mike describes. Chills 300 gallons in about 30-45 mins, and that is with the reservoir being about 60-65f. And the tank will be about 75f when we're finished. Cool it down for a few hours and we're ready to distill using the same reservoir for cooling water. We have a small 5 hp chiller circulating the tank water and recooling it as needed. FWIW, Steve's design on this is great. Very portable, very easy to use. Money well spent! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernhighlander Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 8 hours ago, klattig said: Paul, I've been chewing on this idea for awhile - we would like cool the spent wash from the stripping distillation, and using this waste heat, pre-heat the incoming beer for the next run. Seems like we could save some power costs, and more importantly reduce heat up time. Do you think spent wash could flow through the outer shell? We have a 2" FIP that generates quite a lot of suction... Yes, you could pump spent wash through the shell as long as it is not grain in. If it is viscus corn or rye mash it would probably clog the shell. Of course viscus mashes will pump through the inner tube fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernhighlander Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 14 hours ago, ViolentBlue said: yes the idea of a tube in tube heat exchange has been around for a very long time, I'm talking about a specific design, that has been copied to exact dimension. Paul you seem to know far more about my design than I do yours. by law there must be a 20% change in overall dimensions and features for it to be considered a new design, instead of a copy. this is not the first design I have drawn up that has been copied, released to the public and sold by other vendors here. Oh well the only thing to do is push forward with new innovation, and stay ahead of the curve. I don't know the exact dimensions of your heat exchanger. I was given a design by a Chinese vendor some time ago. He said that it was his design and I have since improved on it. I don't think that it was your design because it did not have a tray or hooks for a hose. To improve the design: I made the frame stronger and made the wheels heavier and then I created a smaller version that has different dimensions than his with a 1.5" tube for the mash, and I ordered several of each design. Then while I was waiting for the ones that I had on order, I improved the design on the larger one even further by adding another tube section and increasing the length of the tubes. I built 2 of those newest designs here and sold them to customers. One of them is in the picture above that you commented on. Note that Mine has 9 maine tube section and yours has 8. Mine has more heat exchange surface area by far and it has a much sturdier frame and now much heavier wheels. With all of that and the fact that it does not have the tray on the top, it is certainly more than 20% different than yours. I have sold most of the ones that I ordered but because of the tariffs, I am not sure if I will be ordering more from China or building them here, but either way I guarantee the best price. As far as knowing about the designs of others, I make it a point to learn about the designs of all of my competitors to the best of my ability. I do not do that in an underhanded way, I just look at them in person and in photos. I also research older designs and look at old patents, some as far back as the early eighteen hundreds. I use what I can and improve upon everything that I can, but I never make anything exactly the same as someone else and I have came up with some great new ideas, especially for my extraction systems and vacuum stills for the pharmaceutical, nutraceutical and Cannabis industries, which I sell through one of my other businesses. Also I work very very hard to keep a low overhead so that I can maintain some of the best prices, quality and customer service in the industry. As far as your equipment, almost every aspect of your designs came from the designs of others. Your newer designs look a great deal like the German still makers designs which I am sure you got many of your ideas from. You designed your pots, manways columns, plates, drain returns agitators, etc, etc after the designs of others. You designed your tube and tube heat exchanger using the designs of those who came before. Click on the link below to see the same basic design built from PVC by a home brewer. It isn't completed but in functionality it is very close to your design as are many others out their including mine. 20th post down by nebulous aug 2014 https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/double-pipe-wort-chiller-calculations.466688/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViolentBlue Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 i will agree my current designs look similar to German designs, that is as far as that goes. as will all my designs, they are engineered from the ground up as my own and unique designs. nothing is taken from anyone else, not even stock designs. as you know intellectual property is often stolen or traded in China without second though. I remember a conversation we had several years ago about one manufacturer in china that outright stole designs from me. you were quite bothered by this notion and swore you would never do business with this company. I had no intention of turning this thread into a pissing contest, it was only my intention to point out there are Innovators and there are thieves, and there are those who re-sell products from thieves and pass it off as their own. so customers have the option of buying from the innovator, thief or re-seller. its how capitalism works. there seems to be a 2 year cycle from the time I draw something up for production and someone else starts selling a bad copy of that design. so that means as long as i keep pushing forward with innovation, then I will always be 2 years ahead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MG Thermal Consulting Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 Yep, you have to be like a Borg and adapt- resistance is futile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernhighlander Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 33 minutes ago, ViolentBlue said: . nothing is taken from anyone else, not even stock designs. as you know intellectual property is often stolen or traded in China without second though. I remember a conversation we had several years ago about one manufacturer in china that outright stole designs from me. you were quite bothered by this notion and swore you would never do business with this company. I had no intention of turning this thread into a pissing contest, it was only my intention to point out there are Innovators and there are thieves, and there are those who re-sell products from thieves and pass it off as their own. so customers have the option of buying from the innovator, thief or re-seller. its how capitalism works. there seems to be a 2 year cycle from the time I draw something up for production and someone else starts selling a bad copy of that design. so that means as long as i keep pushing forward with innovation, then I will always be 2 years ahead. I never stole anyones designs, however I have built on and improved upon existing designs which is what you did with every still that you have ever produced. Bill Gates did the same as have most very successful manufacturers. Brand new unthought of ideas are like hens teeth, they are very rare, but improving upon the ideas of others is commonplace and is done everyday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klattig Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 2 hours ago, Southernhighlander said: Yes, you could pump spent wash through the shell as long as it is not grain in. If it is viscus corn or rye mash it would probably clog the shell. Of course viscus mashes will pump through the inner tube fine. We are grain-in all the way. We're able to pump the spent grains (even more viscous after distillation), but my concern was getting them stuck in the outer tube. This would definitely be easier if we got a centrifuge... Is anyone attempting to recover heat from prior distillations to reduce heat-up of a new wash batch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MG Thermal Consulting Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 I had a client use a couple stainless tanks for reservoirs, I supplied him the chiller with non-ferrous water passages. He would pump potable water from the tank, through the chiller , then to the mash exchanger and finally to Hot water tank for potable use. He would make up water to the cold tank, if he was in the hot water saving mode. I don't have photos as yet, but will get some sooner or later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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