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  1. Today
  2. Dave, Thank you for your help personally over the past few years and from the greater craft spirits community over the past many years answering questions and being a high value asset to the community. Enjoy yourself!
  3. With the instantaneous gelatinization is an interesting theory that sort of makes sense. Not sure how being more gelatinized makes it float more but IDK either.. I was thinking more along the lines of the high heat makes the little cavities of air expand and makes it more buoyant. But I really have no proof either way.. just like to hear theory's
  4. Yesterday
  5. I am assuming you need a steam boiler or is this electric?
  6. Local tribes in Africa, in some places, still get fire with flint or by rubbing two sticks This does not mean at all that we all have to make fire in exactly the same way.
  7. How does oak affect the distillate? During the infusion of alcohol on wood chips, several simultaneous processes occur. A mixture of alcohol and water penetrates the pores of the wood and flushes out the sap of the tree, which changes the taste, color and smell of alcohol. If the surface of the wood was subjected to heat treatment, then under the influence of alcohol and water, the destroyed chains of cellulose and lignin are converted into simple sugars, that is, glucose, fructose. These sugars also mix with alcohol to give it a distinct flavor. In addition, alcohol interacts with tannins that impregnate the bark and wood of oak, as a result of which some of these substances get into the alcohol, changing its taste. Oak chips give the drink a cognac color and taste, which not everyone likes, therefore, to improve the taste and color, it is processed in various ways, the most popular of which are roasting and soaking. During caramelization, the chemical chains of cellulose and lignin break down into simple sugars (monosaccharides), which enter the distillate and change its flavor. Due to the insignificant amount of monosaccharides, they cannot radically change the taste of alcohol, but they can give it a flavor and make it more memorable. Depending on the temperature and roasting time, the influence of oak wood on alcohol changes. The use of chips of minimum roast (temperature 120-160 degrees, time 2-3 hours) gives the distillate a light smell and vanilla flavor. Medium roasting (temperature 180-200 degrees, time 6-10 hours) gives the drink a taste and smell of caramel. Maximum roasting (temperature 200-220 degrees, time 15-20 hours) fills the alcohol-containing liquid with the aroma and taste of dark chocolate. There is no perfect recipe for roasting, because it is impossible to accurately determine the effect of this process on the final product. To do this, it is necessary to conduct a series of experiments, but even this approach does not guarantee that those who decide to repeat it will have the same results. After all, the assessment of the taste and smell of the tincture is based on subjective perception, so much depends on who will take the sample. Nevertheless, the general principles of roasting are the same - the wood is exposed to hot air or open fire, constantly monitoring the state of the chips. If the temperature during frying is less than 120 degrees, then there is no destruction of the chains of polysaccharides. At temperatures above 220 degrees, not only polysaccharides are destroyed, but also monosaccharides, which react with oxygen and oxidize to form scorched areas. Therefore, it is necessary to experiment, keeping within the temperature range of 120-220 degrees Celsius. There are no clear proportions of alcohol and oak chips. Some masters declare that 5-10 grams of wood chips are enough for a liter of moonshine, chacha or other distillate, others declare the need to use 20-50 grams.
  8. 1) My advice on bourbon is correct because a) it has already been done and there is a result. And the result is completely controllable, as opposed to "long holding in barrels". Here's an example: https://techcrunch.com/2020/10/07/bespoken-spirits-raises-2-6m-in-seed-funding-to-combine-machine-learning-and-accelerated-whiskey-aging/ And here is a photo from my example: We sell several varieties of American Whiskey in our supermarkets. If I don’t like Whiskey it doesn’t mean that I didn’t drink it and it doesn’t mean at all that I cannot make it. 2) The USA is an interesting country Whiskey producers have made Laws according to which the word Whiskey should be called a drink made in only one, laborious way. This is the protection of the economic interests of the old manufacturer, nothing more. But if we are talking about Chemistry and taste, then Whiskey is a simple technological process that does not require many years of production and aging.
  9. Yeah, if you think vodka + wood-chips = bourbon you just outed yourself as not having a clue what you're talking about. People have been working on artificial aging & maturation of whiskey for about 200 years without success. Please try your method and taste it side-by-side with a conventional bourbon, and if you are unable to taste the difference you need to spend a lot more time doing sensory training and less time giving bad advice.
  10. glisade

    Retirement

    I needed Dave's help with another distillery and it was the best advice I could have had..and it wasn't even regulations related! His knowledge is invaluable. Enjoy your retirement!
  11. If you don't make whiskey why do you think your advice on bourbon production is valid? The process you're describing would not qualify as bourbon here in the US.
  12. Great article! It is the best possible way, it shows the inability of people to see the forest behind the first trees As for me, I love vodka. It's just a mixture of alcohol and water. Nothing extra All other drinks, in general, are a mixture of alcohol, water, and many different impurities, some of which can kill or stop your heart (potassium ions for example). Bourbon, in simple terms, is alcohol + water + juice from freshly roasted (Maillard reaction) oak juice So why do you need barrels at all? The article gives all the hints If I was doing a startup producing bourbon with the smell of oak barrels, I would never use barrels and the whole manufacturing process would have been no more than a month or two before the release of the first batch of bourbon. In order to get whiskey no worse than Jim Beam you only need about 1-2 grams of fried oak chips per 1.5 liters of alcohol + ultrasonic bath. The whole process takes a couple of minutes. The main challenge (and time) will be in mixing the test samples and getting exactly the flavor you want. But it’s a pleasant process you don’t need to wait for it for 2 years. And the investor will receive his first industrial bourbon after a month of experimentation. I live in Ukraine, we do not make Whiskey we drink vodka and moonshine as well as fruit liqueurs. But if you really want to make bourbon, then I can help you do it without hundreds of thousands of dollars in costs for building warehouses and buying barrels. We live in the 21st century, and you need to understand exactly that if you want to make money, then you need to use modern technologies that allow you to achieve results quickly and reliably. The repeatability should be 90% -100%, no dependence on weather, sea waves, air density, etc. Only a controlled environment and strict adherence to the production technology (procedure) will lead to 100% success.
  13. This is a interesting article that came out some time back. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/11/the-new-science-of-old-whiskey/309522/?single_page=true
  14. We're talking about different things I'm talking about the fact that the production technology should be repeatable and the same from year to year. This topic began with the question "can you store barrels on the street (outside under the sky)?" I wrote my opinion (technology + temperature). We read Wikipedia: "Aged in barrels. The total number of Jim Beam barrels in stock in 2015 was about 1.9 million (approximately 380 million liters or 100 million gallons). All of them are stored in nine-storey warehouses. These warehouses are the tallest in the industry. The higher the barrel is stored in the warehouse, the hotter it is in summer. During these thermal cycles, the barrels expand and open the pores of the wood. Due to aging, bourbon acquires vanilla and caramel notes, despite the fact that sugar is not used in the production. In addition, the color of the bourbon changes from colorless to golden brown. " It is nowhere written here that Jim Beam barrels are stored in the open air A warehouse is a room with a controlled environment. The level of control is a question. And I think no one will tell us the details.
  15. I don't understand your point, but mine was that: the majority of Kentucky whiskey (including Jim Beam) is not in temperature controlled warehouses and experiences dramatic temperature swings both daily and seasonally. Not only do they produce consistent products, they view it as helping the whiskey to mature.
  16. I shrug ... I believe that you should always remember that in addition to quick money, there is also reputation and quality. If you chase money and do not follow the production technology of the drink, then in the end it will be incomprehensible what, under the sign (label), which does not correspond to the content. Jim Beam whiskey has been following the technology for many years. Jim Beam wouldn't be who he is if he was just chasing money and "keeping barrels on the street because it's cheaper."
  17. Tell that to the Kentucky whiskey industry...
  18. I would love to see some stats on how many distillery Dave has had his hands in? I for one have used him twice on two different distillery. Dave. You will be missed but we are all thankful for all the hard work you put in on behalf of us.
  19. I think Adam nailed it. As long as you don't have major clumping problems when mixing in fine milled grain, the higher temp does keep solids suspended better. We mash in rye with a colder starting temp, as we use a step mash process. In our old tun (lacking serious agitation), the rye would sit in a pile at the bottom of the tun at the start, and as the temp moved upwards, began to gel and thicken the liquid, it would finally hit a point where it would stay in suspension. Was a frustrating process as it required going in with a mash paddle to stir up until you hit that point. Our new tun has a big mixer, so we don't at all notice this happening.
  20. Thanks for everything and happy retirement! I wouldn’t be in this business or where I’m at with the business without this forum and some of your posts. THANK YOU! -Tyson
  21. Thank you for everything you've done Dave! You are more a part of the craft distilling movement in the US than you probably realize!
  22. Foreshot

    Retirement

    Dave - Enjoy your retirement! I appreciated all of your help with our distillery & getting it set up. Have fun!
  23. What are we arguing about? See the picture: Can you see the irrigation system? Water is sprayed onto the drums to reduce their temperature and reduce the evaporation of alcohol through the walls of the drums. And one more thing: the article talks about wine and not about Whiskey. Wine has less% alcohol. And now the quote: "... Behind the front building at the Maison of Noilly Prat is a courtyard, and in this courtyard are 2,000 barrels where the picpoul and clairette wines age separately outdoors for a full year, oxidizing and taking on aspects of the salty sea air. ... " 1) it speaks of one kind of wine only. 2) do you have "salty sea air"? We are talking about different things. I repeat what I wrote - aging in barrels requires a constant stable temperature, if you want to have an alcoholic drink with strictly defined properties, and not "this year's wine, but sorry, we had a dry summer, so the taste is different from what you are used to drinking in a bottle, under this name ".
  24. dhdunbar

    Retirement

    For those of you who may follow what I say here, I've not been active lately. Most simply put, I burned out. I've decided to retire, but will continue to answer questions on the forums as a thank you for the opportunity you guys gave me to have a consulting business. I appreciate that and have tried to return that favor in this forum. I'm referring my business to another person and am providing her with a backstop in the case someone throws her a curve ball. I'm referring to her because I think she will put your best interests first. I've tried to do that. I'm going to help her for a time. If you have issues that you want to discuss directly with me, I will probably continue to do some work on complicated stuff, especially if it requires some sense of institutional or regulatory history to get it framed in a way that we can give TTB a reason to say "yes" instead of the often easier "no." We try to do the heavy lifting necessary to get that done. If I agree to take something on, it will be on ad hoc basis. So if you want help, ask. I can always tell you why you don't need me - people often don't - or why someone else can help you just as well as I can, so I'd prefer to just sit. But if I think you need my knowledge (I've been at this for 50 years and have learned a thing or two) , I'll probably agree to give it a go. That is about as close to advertising as I've ever come in my time on forums. Forgive me if it tramples on some policies of which I'm not aware :-).
  25. You make application to TTB for a federal basic permit as someone who warehouses and bottles, and to register the DSP as a warehouseman and processor who bottles. You do that on a single application using permits online. TTB sorts the data into the permit and registration applications. If you want to obtain spirits from another DSP, you make an application to receive transfers in bond (no tax paid) from each of the DSP's from which you want to receive the spirits. If you know the persons from whom you want to receive the in bond spirits, you may make application for transfers in bond when you submit the application to become a DSP. The business model wasn't complicated until Congress made some changes to the tax laws. There is a reduced rate of tax on spirits that you process other than bottling. Taht is up to 100,000 pg. The changes were a curveball, because bottling was a processing operations and so it used to qualify the spirits for the reduced rate. However, from the plain language of the law, it appears it no longer does. And basrrel aging isn't processing. TTB has not issued its temporary regulations or announced rule making. They have to do that soon. I've been on TTB's case, a bit, about getting the rules out soon, because the rules on taxes take effect 1/1/2022 and people have to be making business plans. That is less than 6 months away. I do not know who put the bee in congresses bonnet about only allowing the credit on spirits you produce or process other than bottling, but I must believe that it came from industry sources, since congresspersons do not understand that level of detail. Somone, that is, wanted to get an economic advantage over blenders, etc. the regulatons are full of that. It's the reason that whiskey standard of identity are such a damned mess If you want to use imported spirits, then you must either become an importer - get a basic permit as an importer - or hire an importer to do it for you. If you would like to discuss this further, send me a personal message. I'm retiring but do not intend to become unavailable to talk with those who need help or advice. And for the record, Mr. Flintstone is right. You can make money bottling other people's spirits. People were doing that well before I started getting involved in alcoholic beverage businesses some - say it ain't so but it is - 50 years ago come September. Blending is an art too.
  26. Last week
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