stills for start up

[Panama Jack]

Looking for a good still to start up a company. VanDome and Kothe each have a small still (less than 40 gallons) for around $30k that do not require boilers and major upgrades to space, they use electric for heat source (yeah ouch expensive to operate). I realize if the product does well will need bigger space and larger stills, but spending more when you have product on the market is a little less scary. Anyone else who started off small out there who can recommend a quality still for less than $30,000. Anyone know of any small used stills for sale? For those who use open flame to heat stills, how did you deal with code issues and venting? Any input would be great!

[will]

PJ,

There are plenty of low-cost or self-made stills in use by DSPs around the world. You do not have to spend pickup truck-fulls of money to get a still that will work. You will also find it difficult to make a still that's as nice and easy to use as a commercial still.

The key consideration is to size the still and wash system behind it so that you can make enough juice to crunch the monthly nut. Small is not better, but big may be unwieldy. The proper size is the size that will allow you to run your product with a few days to spare - so you can have a life.

Don't undersize your condenser. The brakes in your car have more horsepower than your engine, and the condenser should have more capacity (in BTU) than the kettle.

Also, beware of reflux systems that easily will allow condensed liquid to fall back into the kettle in large gushes - this will cause surge boiling that may cause your machine to puke...and that can cause the bad thing.

Will

[Panama Jack]

Thanks Will and thanks to all those who sent private responses. I will be calling over the next few days everyone who sent me contact info. That is the highlight of the small comercial units and all of the sensors etc. Make it easier to fine tune and get consistant results on the final product. I was thinking a larger simpler open flame unit for the larger stripping runs.

[Guest Liberty Bar - Seattle]

Thanks Will and thanks to all those who sent private responses. I will be calling over the next few days everyone who sent me contact info. That is the highlight of the small comercial units and all of the sensors etc. Make it easier to fine tune and get consistant results on the final product. I was thinking a larger simpler open flame unit for the larger stripping runs.

I'd probably first ask what you plan on making. Those still that you mention are beautiful and obviously work really well, but for a much less expensive amount you can purchase some fantastic stills that would work easily as well...depending on what you're distilling. Whiskey? Vodka?

[Panama Jack]

Wiskey, mad dog and rum to start. we may bottle some NGS to put out a vodka and gin until our spirits age, so our first still is not to produce Vodka. As we grow I would like to add a still with a big column for vodka.

[lswanson1]

Wiskey, mad dog and rum to start. we may bottle some NGS to put out a vodka and gin until our spirits age, so our first still is not to produce Vodka. As we grow I would like to add a still with a big column for vodka.

Im in a similar situation. I am looking at getting VendomeCoppers 30 gallon electric for $30k along with 2 300 gallon variable capacity fermentation tanks. My product will initially be an apple brandy/eau de vie de pome.

[Panama Jack]

I have been looking at that still as well as various other options. What level of output are you looking at? Ate you going to do a stripping run in another still. If you plan to just use the 30 gallon still how often do you think you will need to clean/replace the packing?

[lswanson1]

I have been looking at that still as well as various other options. What level of output are you looking at? Ate you going to do a stripping run in another still. If you plan to just use the 30 gallon still how often do you think you will need to clean/replace the packing?

I am pretty much in the exact same boat as you so I dont have any real projections yet on output, multiple runs, washes, etc. I am kind of going the opposite direction from most because I basically have limitless raw materials that I have access to for free so I could go nuts and go get a 500 gallon still and I still would have more product to go through then that still could handle. My thought process is that for at least my first year, I will start small since I will be doing alot of experimenting and will need small batches and then if I do decide to go expand I will still have the smaller still to try new recipes out on. Our orchard operations produces 1000 gallons a day but right now we only press once a week. Out of that we produce 3200 pounds of apple pomace. I plan on trying an apple brandy, eau de vie de pomme and apple liqueur made out of pomace, mash and cider to see what the differences in taste are based on starting raw product. As of right now, in my business plan I have penciled in the 30 gallon VendomeCopper Still and 2-300 gallon stainless steel variable capacity fermentation tanks. I am trying to stay reasonably small at the start so I can test the market waters here in Montana without extending myself too much. Right now it looks like I will be able to get up and running with a $50k loan because I have alot of the major purchases already available to me such as the building, storage and marketing campaign. All I really need is as far as the big equipment is the still, tanks and bottler. Everything else is just misc. lab equipment (hydromemter, carboys, graduated cylinders, etc.) and the bottles and labels, which I already have all ready to go.

[delaware_phoenix]

You probably won't need a fancy bottler with that kind of production. Any of the basic bottlers will be fine.

The back of the envelope calculation for production is from mash to low wines you lose 80% of the volume, from low wines to spirit run you get only a quarter of that. So 1/20th of the original mash volume as product. Your proof goes up in this process, so from 8% mash/wash you get about 120 proof spirit.

So 5 gallons @ 120 proof from 100 gallons of mash; or 7.5 gallons @ 80 proof from 100 gallons of mash.

Five 750 ml bottles per gallon. So roughly 35 to 40 bottles (750 ml) per 100 gallons of mash.

This doesn't include effects of recycling of tails, different yeasts with higher or lower ABV tolerance, or losses through aging.

So for a 30 gallon still, overall will yield 12 bottles (approx.) Without tails recycling, you need 5-6 mash runs to get enough low wines to do a spirit run.

This is all for a basic pot still.

Edited June 14, 2010 by delaware_phoenix

[coop]

You probably won't need a fancy bottler with that kind of production. Any of the basic bottlers will be fine.

The back of the envelope calculation for production is from mash to low wines you lose 80% of the volume, from low wines to spirit run you get only a quarter of that. So 1/20th of the original mash volume as product. Your proof goes up in this process, so from 8% mash/wash you get about 120 proof spirit.

So 5 gallons @ 120 proof from 100 gallons of mash; or 7.5 gallons @ 80 proof from 100 gallons of mash.

Five 750 ml bottles per gallon. So roughly 35 to 40 bottles (750 ml) per 100 gallons of mash.

This doesn't include effects of recycling of tails, different yeasts with higher or lower ABV tolerance, or losses through aging.

So for a 30 gallon still, overall will yield 12 bottles (approx.) Without tails recycling, you need 5-6 mash runs to get enough low wines to do a spirit run.

This is all for a basic pot still.

This is a real good example. I, for the last two years of production, have been getting 4.5 to 5 gallons of 120 proof alcohol for every 80 gallons of wash. It starts to go down a little if I get my grind a little to large for the mash runs. Every one who signs on here should get this information. It seams to come up a lot. Coop

[delaware_phoenix]

People need to know that the default retailer markup is about 30%. Varies by state and store, but that's a reasonable number at least where I am.

It's been mentioned here that you can assume a 100% markup by a distributor. You might get a better deal, but you also have to make sure your craft spirit doesn't end up in a warehouse forever. If in a control state, the markup the state charges is a combination of the distributor and retailer markups. So it might be a little cheaper if you can get into those if you have the production, or by necessity, because that's where you live.

Now here's a selection of whiskey prices for an NYC store. Look on the internet for a store in your area to get your prices. Some of these are a bit lower than other prices I've seen for other states.

http://www.chamberss...8&categoryid=27

We can see that a lot of the good stuff from the majors are going for $50-60, with a few higher than that, some lower. Four Roses single barrel is $44 (that's a good price I think). And all of this is aged 8 years, 10 years, or more.

So let's say you can sell you stuff at $60 retail. That means they paid about $46. So if you're able to sell direct to them, that's great news! Otherwise, figure $23, maybe $25 to you per bottle. Before taxes, and expenses.

So from your 30 gallon still, you gross $275-300 from your 5-6 wash runs plus spirit run (12 bottles at $23-25 each). Aren't you glad corn, barley and rye are cheap and your labor free? So let's say you're an industrious, sober, hard-working man or woman and can do those runs in 3 days. You can gross $3000 a month in that situation.

My guess is this is a little optimistic based on the fact that other stuff comes up and takes away from plain distilling. You still need to bottle, need to deliver, do mashing, fermenting (though thankfully your yeast are hard-working and industrious). And you won't have time for TV, or Facebook, or taking your kids to the ball game. It would be very helpful if you have a partner or friend who works for free. Free child labor is valuable too.

I'm sure someone can correct these figures with their practical experience if need be.

(btw I didn't include the benefit of reducing to 80 proof for sale. This increases you overall yield about 30%, but it makes the product less craft-like, less artisanal, and the product may well fetch less.)

Edited June 15, 2010 by delaware_phoenix

[Made in Maine]

Hey folks,

I remembered this post and had to throw our hat in. Please see the picture below and know that you can get one similar to this 100 gallon for around 30K and you would be way ahead of the game out of the blocks. My very rough figures put a 100 gallon charge at 10% at 25 gallons of product. That divided into heads, hearts and tails should give you about 20 gallons of 80 proof per run(roughly). This still heats to running temp in about 2-2.5 hours and has many amenities to K.I.S.S. One big red E-stop button and one on/off switch and you are running. Manual control on the condenser is simple. It is wash-down ready and easy to maintain. A Gin basket, taller column for packing and a dephlemator are some options too. Stainless condenser and Parrot are standard. We enjoy building simple and beautiful equipment for this industry. Please see our website for other handy products.

[Seth]

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