Rye Whiskey

[coop]

I am looking at making some Rye Whiskey and am not sure where to start. Is only Rye used in the mash? What kinds of Rye? Do I mash it the same way as my other grain mashes? If I use other grains in my Rye mash what would the ratio be? For converting starches to sugar will my malted barley amounts be the same as my Bourbon mash? Thanks, Coop

[Tirador]

At least according to what I've been told, and to the verious books in my library, Rye can be used by itself but it produces a very low yeild. It is more common to use a mixture of unmalted Rye, with Rye and/or Barley malt. Again ... based solely on what I've been told and read.

From what I understand, the mash is made from unmalted Rye along with either Rye or Barley malt. This is then cooked and fermeted ... and most of the books I have state that specifically for Rye Whiskey the whole mash is fermented. They don't explain why and I know there's been a lot of discussion here about fermenting with or without solids for whiskeys ... but perhaps (a guess on my part) more of the unique flavor of the Rye comes through if you leave the solids in???

I'll be interested in hearing what others have to say about this topic as I've been thinking about Rye lately as well.

S.

[Andrew]

Coop:

Rye whiskey is "from a fermented mash of not less than 51 percent rye", so the mash bill is pretty open. A lot of ryes use a very healthy portion of barley for better saccrification - malted rye's mix of amylases aren't as ideal as barley malt.

This is stolen from a brewing site, but it sums up the most notable bits of our rye experiences:

"Like wheat, rye comes in hulled form. The lack of a hull, combined with rye's high water retention capacity, can create a very sticky mash prone to setting. These and other considerations behoove the brewer to both carefully consider the form of rye to be used (some forms, such as grits, are more troublesome and trouble-prone than others) and to make adjustments during the brewing process.

One important factor to consider is rye's high beta-glucan content. beta-glucans -- starches made up of long strands of glucose molecules -- greatly increase wort viscosity. A slow runoff and sparge time can be expected; given rye's high beta-glucan and protein profile, filtration problems and a set mash are typical problems."

The stuff sets. We've done a 100% rye mash and an 80% rye mash; both have been our most challenging mashes.

Best,

Andrew

[Tirador]

Andrew ... "the stuff sets" ... as in it becomes solid like cement?

Have you tried lower quantities of Rye to reduce the viscosity, settling, etc?

S.

[Spirit of Texas Brad]

Consult brewing texts on stuck mashes. You can use techniques like rice hulls, etc. The rye plugs the holes in equipment designed for barley mashes.

[Chris Martin]

I'd love to know what Anchor does. That is 100% rye, correct? Yummy.

Excuse the rye novice question, but are these problems (set mash, filtration) common with grain bills with high levels of rye, or even with rye as, say, 20-30%? At what point do these situations develop and what did you (Andrew - Corsair) do to deal with them?

I think I'm asking the same questions as Tirador... your input would be invaluable.

[Denver Distiller]

Set mash refers to lauter tuns only.

No such thing as a set mash otherwise. You can get around beta glucans by either altering your mash regimes (lower temps in step mashing), or you can "cheat" and use beta glucanase.

Anchor Steam uses 100% Malted Rye, which makes malted barley unnecessary. The SOD's classify malted rye and rye as different materials, leading to different COLA possibilities.

[Chris Martin]

Excellent!!! I LOVE this place. Thank you.

[Andrew]

Set mash refers to lauter tuns only.

We do lauter many of our mashes to wash. Our wash pot has no agitator and a small manway so we've been cautious with grain in the still. A column still and a powerful pumping system would make the stuff a cakewalk, I imagine.

Beta glucans like to bind together like gluten in dough when you work a rye mash, turning a liquid grain soup into an thick oatmeal. Reducing stirring, adding a heap of rice hulls, adding malted barley, and simply accepting that the mash will lauter slowly all have helped. We've also done a couple test batches with beta glucanases, which do wonders for liquifying the mash but requires its own temperature step and conversion time, so it saves time by taking time.

[Denver Distiller]

....and simply accepting that the mash will lauter slowly all have helped.

I'll bet!

Good stuff. I wish quick runoffs for you, Andrew....Cheers.

[delaware_phoenix]

If you poke at some of the "old books", the common ones published after Prohibition available as paperback reprints for cheap. Typically you see 70-90% unmalted rye, the rest in malted rye and/or malted barley. The real old recipes (assuming they're accurate) often have as little as 5% malted grain. But their expectations for yield were quite different from today.

This is for the traditional rye whiskey. But even there, sometimes some corn was used. It's been said that Geo. Washington used up to 35% corn in his rye whiskey, when available.

I highly recommend John Palmer's "How to Brew". While about making beer, and thus there are things that won't really apply to us, it has a lot of information about yeast, fermenting, grains, etc. All important. deKlerk's masterwork is also valuable though even Older School, but has a lot of information about how to malt. Other home brewing books may well be useful depending on your interest.

[coop]

If you poke at some of the "old books", the common ones published after Prohibition available as paperback reprints for cheap. Typically you see 70-90% unmalted rye, the rest in malted rye and/or malted barley. The real old recipes (assuming they're accurate) often have as little as 5% malted grain. But their expectations for yield were quite different from today.

This is for the traditional rye whiskey. But even there, sometimes some corn was used. It's been said that Geo. Washington used up to 35% corn in his rye whiskey, when available.

I highly recommend John Palmer's "How to Brew". While about making beer, and thus there are things that won't really apply to us, it has a lot of information about yeast, fermenting, grains, etc. All important. deKlerk's masterwork is also valuable though even Older School, but has a lot of information about how to malt. Other home brewing books may well be useful depending on your interest.

I thank you all for your help on this topic. I think I will wait till some time this winter to try Rye Whiskey. Have all I can do right now with my tequila. Fermentation is tough for this one. Thanks again. Coop

[delaware_phoenix]

So far I've had challenges with the rye ferments. You'd think they'd take off but they don't. Seems to be a couple days before the yeast really kick in. That's my experience so far. Which is limited.