melanoidins and the anti-diageo

[Seattle Spirits]

So the volume of data and material about historical methods and current "big guy" methods is massive but the bit I really want to come out of this movement is creativity and an expanded flavor profile.

I know we are all just grasping to pay the bills or even figure out what tails smell like but I wanted to start the discussion about moving it to the next level.

My primary interest is in Whiskeys which is as broad as saying "wine" but aged brown liquors of grain.

My palate is not good at all with the scotches however I can tell when a whiskey comes from four roses or buffalo trace and I appreciate the quality and the epic challenge of producing a good product at such a massive scale but I feel like that we should be mixing it up a bit.

They have huge operations and huge warehouses and they can blend barrels like crazy or sell ones they don't want on the spot market (bullet is still OK after they moved to the spot market btw) but we don't have the restrictions they have.

Even if you are mashing 30bbl we can add a sack of Munich or crystal malt if it would carry over, I want to explore those not cooperage flavors and see what goes on. Do you like how the melanoidins from a dark malt carry over or is do you think the flavors that do carry are overblown by the woods contribution to the end product?

The big distilleries have to move product out of the fermenter as fast as possible so their mash is going to be full of Acetaldehyde (grass flavor) which is an intermediary between sucrose and ethanol, so letting the fermentation sit a little while should help reduce it right?

Or how about Dimethyl sulfides, the beer guys get rid of them by boiling but distillers depend on aging. Would the addition of a 60 min boil help reduce the aging time by a year or so? Is that energy worth it? In my testing it helps but has anyone else worked with it? (I do wish people pushing white dog would boil)

How about Diacetyl (butter popcorn)I have found that the "distiller yeasts" actually produce a lot of diacetyl especially when they are under pitched which is unfortunately common in the distilling world.

There are a lot of beer yeasts that are available now that tolerate high gravity and high alcohol levels and are a LOT cleaner then the traditional distillers yeasts in my mind, like Wyeast Rogue Pacman 1764.

1764 is not available for commercial brewers but there are lots of options to Wyeast Eau de Vie or Champagne (4021); both of witch i'm not sure come across the way I personaly like.

[MadMacaw]

You have touched upon a number of topics that with a little knowledge of how to select appropriate malt types and yeast strains and proper fermentation management will go a long way towards eliminating the problematic profiles you mentioned. Also, due to the general lack of persons with beer brewing experience or at least education, there is a dearth of examples of American single malt whiskies with any significant complexity. I can't tell you how many times I have bit my tongue in the last 8 years while "distillers" describe their grists as containing "one malted barley type" solely making their whisky a "true single malt" as if that is a true definition! We have the opportunity to blaze a different trail... Embrace it! If you don't know how different malt styles can effect flavor... befriend a brewer and ask. The difference although is that we deal with volatiles more so than the goals of beer production. This means that we have to build whisky grists that are bigger in volatile character than their beer counterparts. That is where you have to put the "brewer's brain" back on the shelf and look at things a bit differently.

In regards to the DMS issue... That should be easily avoidable by choosing fully modified malts. Ask your malt provider to give you a spec for SMM. This is indicative of how much DMS will be produced post process. If you avoid 6 row malt, so called "distiller's malt" and lager malts, this value should be low enough to not cause concern (assuming the maltster is good to start with).

As far as diacetyl, that is easily avoidable as well. Proper pitch rates, temperature controlled fermentations and making sure that the culture you use is both vital and viable will go a long way to make sure diacetyl is not a problem.

People in our industry seem overly concerned with fermentation time as opposed to making sure that the fermentation performance is optimized so that it results in an appropriate flavor profile. In the case of diacetyl, no amount of aging will eliminate it, it will either end up melding somewhat in the flavor profile, or in extreme cases it can actually rancidiify with oxygen exposure. In regards to excessive aldehyde production, that one will definitely bite you in the a**! As oxygen exposure increases, aldehydes reduce into harsh alcohols... Not good!

Another concern to think about when trying to make an appropriate single malt whisky is that if you don't lauter the grist ( separate the malts from the liquid) you not only are going to concentrate the phenol content of the base material, bur you also are going to carry through undesirable yeast characteristics that don't "age out" and I'd commonly referred to as "yeast bite".

[Brian]

I know you are looking for the more technical aspects of what make a good whiskey and in fact we are about to embark on running our own GC to track these aspects.

The thing about small distillers is innovation. When you think about it the big guys can blend up a really wonderful product by steering a result to their hearts content. You can do that as well. I would ask what is the motivation of such efforts? Speaking for myself we really don't steer our products that much. There are some wonderful 12 year old Scotches....if you could choose from 400,000 barrels you could do just fine with the same exercise. You can never win at their technology game. The big guys have labs of folks trying to keep their products from varying from day to day.....for you this variability is not a problem, but a feature.

I think you can get caught up in trying to be as good or better than the big guys. The big guys have a huge Achilles heel. They are so big that they cannot change direction on a dime. They drive container boats full of spirits and you are driving something more like a kayak or maybe a nice twin engine fishing boat. The best Coca-cola has already been made and there is no reason to make a better Coke.

Small distillers can develop a wonderful product tuned to their own locales. Have customers that know them by name and adopt them into their families. You can change your yeasts on a batch by batch basis and lead or follow any emerging trend in months not decades. The big guys are desparately trying to have the same relationships with their customers that you have been born into! Your locale mixologist would love to tell his/her customer that he/she knows YOU. That you have made with product from Jimmy's maple sugar bush or Joe's corn field on the ridge. You have been dealt a wonderful set of cards and can easily create a better white dog or any other product you like by just paying attention. Your products are lovingly HAND MADE with THESE HANDS...play the Aces you have been dealt!! You have a local connection to your local environ that some 10,000GPD distiller is trying desperately and expensively to create in their brand. You are the AUTHENTIC deal!

[Andrew]

We have been using a lot of prepared malts.

In our experience, lighter preparations of malt, crystal especially, alter the flavor of a white dog only subtlely. These do not stand up to our barrels. Heavy roasts do make a notable difference. To us, these flavors can stand up to barrels. We use a lot of chocolate rye and chocolate malt.

New barrels are cruel to the difference in flavors we get from using different malt preparations. As well, the heavier the barrel char, the quicker our mashes with alternate grain preparations move back to the flavor baseline set by plain old two row. Some of our most interesting white dogs when placed in new 4 char taste very much like a vanilla two row malt after being barreled for a bit. There remains more complexity, but the specific interesting flavors that excite us in the white dog are difficult to pick out; they can get muddied and subdued. Given that traditional whiskeys are so similar in their base preparation, though, even a subtle flavor nudge can (in my opinion) significantly differentiate a craft whiskey.

Used barrels are obviously kinder; it's my unresearched opinion that this is from the char being "used up" as an activated carbon filter more that the barrel flavors already being stripped. We haven't tried toasted barrels for alternate grain preparations, they may be a good idea. I was unimpressed with the new toasted barrels we fooled around with for (otherwise-)bourbon and rum aging so haven't gone back to them.

[JohninWV]

Andrew, that's disappointing to hear. We are making a new bourbon product (60% corn and variety of malts) and just loved the complexity the varying malts gave the white dog. My favorite product yet in the white dog form. They are all light malt preparations. I hope the barrel aging doesn't completely take this away but from what you are saying, that's probably what I have to look forward to.

[Andrew]

Sorry John, I didn't mean to be a wet blanket! I'm firmly convinced that it's well worth experimenting with all the wonderful grain preps that brewers have embraced and traditional distilleries have ignored.

I would advise that you pull sizeable (200+ ml) samples from your new bourbon's barrels across time. We've found that with certain alt-grain whiskeys, blending in some very young whiskey into fully aged gets the grain notes we want back into the product while getting good barrel character. Having a set of samples across time may be handy for trying to back-blend if your favored notes get muddled.

Obviously, you can also see if the notes you want do diminish over time and can make a judgement call about pulling the entire product young, or seeing that all is well and having the confidence to let it go long. We have a production whiskey we pull young to retain the flavors we want before they disappear.

[JohninWV]

Thanks Andrew. Those are good points.

[Seattle Spirits]

We are just about to sign a lease and apply for our DSP, the recession slowed us down for a few years. In those years I have been working on fermentation and grain bill side but the woods flavors are the big unknown for me.

I know how new/used and char effect beer but that is of little use for whiskey.

A friend who has his DSP and has been kind enough to run a few barrels of my recipes in trade for me teaching him how to improve is mashing ability and I have a good solid feel for what we need to do to make a sell-able product but that "new charred" requirement does seem to blow a lot of flavors away.

At this point I am tending towards used barrels but the whole "MALT WHISKY" vs "WHISKY DISTILLED FROM MALT MASH" label issue worries me, the average consumer won't care but I wonder about the foodies and whiskey geeks.

Thank you for the feedback everyone.

[Gwydion Stone]

A friend who has his DSP and has been kind enough to run a few barrels of my recipes in trade for me teaching him how to improve is mashing ability and I have a good solid feel for what we need to do to make a sell-able product but that "new charred" requirement does seem to blow a lot of flavors away.

How long have you been aging these? The whole point of barrel aging is that the flavors change over time. You can't rush whisky.

[Seattle Spirits]

Marteau,

2 years 3 months at this point, they were 15 gallon white oak with a "medium" char.

It is at a warmer place then we will have here in Seattle, we are guesstimating 4 years, unfortunately those barrels with my recipe are sitting in a place of the country that has little in common with our temperatures here in the NW.

[WI Distiller]

I have no personal experience, but 4 years seems like a LONG time in 15 gallon barrels. Maybe someone else can chime in.

There seem to be ways to get around that clunky "whiskey distilled from a malt mash" label. If it's not in new heavy char you can't call it "Malt Whiskey," but why not call it "Seattle Spirits Reserve Whiskey," or something like that.

Clear Creek has a "Single Malt" aged in used sherry casks: http://www.clearcreekdistillery.com/whiskey.html Although the site says they spend some time in "Oregon oak" so maybe the age it briefly in heavy char to meet the requirement.

I'd say make the best whiskey and figure out what to call it, not the other way around.

[Seattle Spirits]

WI,

I should clarify, the smaller barrels were only for that run, we will be using 53 Gallon barrels.

[bradocaster]

I have a ferment 2 days in using distillers malt. will it for sure have to much DMS? how will i be able to tell?

Thanks, Brad

You have touched upon a number of topics that with a little knowledge of how to select appropriate malt types and yeast strains and proper fermentation management will go a long way towards eliminating the problematic profiles you mentioned. Also, due to the general lack of persons with beer brewing experience or at least education, there is a dearth of examples of American single malt whiskies with any significant complexity. I can't tell you how many times I have bit my tongue in the last 8 years while "distillers" describe their grists as containing "one malted barley type" solely making their whisky a "true single malt" as if that is a true definition! We have the opportunity to blaze a different trail... Embrace it! If you don't know how different malt styles can effect flavor... befriend a brewer and ask. The difference although is that we deal with volatiles more so than the goals of beer production. This means that we have to build whisky grists that are bigger in volatile character than their beer counterparts. That is where you have to put the "brewer's brain" back on the shelf and look at things a bit differently.

In regards to the DMS issue... That should be easily avoidable by choosing fully modified malts. Ask your malt provider to give you a spec for SMM. This is indicative of how much DMS will be produced post process. If you avoid 6 row malt, so called "distiller's malt" and lager malts, this value should be low enough to not cause concern (assuming the maltster is good to start with).

As far as diacetyl, that is easily avoidable as well. Proper pitch rates, temperature controlled fermentations and making sure that the culture you use is both vital and viable will go a long way to make sure diacetyl is not a problem.

People in our industry seem overly concerned with fermentation time as opposed to making sure that the fermentation performance is optimized so that it results in an appropriate flavor profile. In the case of diacetyl, no amount of aging will eliminate it, it will either end up melding somewhat in the flavor profile, or in extreme cases it can actually rancidiify with oxygen exposure. In regards to excessive aldehyde production, that one will definitely bite you in the a**! As oxygen exposure increases, aldehydes reduce into harsh alcohols... Not good!

Another concern to think about when trying to make an appropriate single malt whisky is that if you don't lauter the grist ( separate the malts from the liquid) you not only are going to concentrate the phenol content of the base material, bur you also are going to carry through undesirable yeast characteristics that don't "age out" and I'd commonly referred to as "yeast bite".

[Seattle Spirits]

bradocaster:

DMS is the part of the smell of cabbage or part of the smell of when the tide goes out, or if you have ever been to a town with a large pulp mill it is that smell.

It all depends on how long you age the product and what you want as a flavor profile etc....

Are you running a 100% barley malt mash, typically you use distillers malt because you have unmodified grains that need the increased diastatic power over the typical 2 row that is used for beer malt.

Six row has a larger husk and less starch and more protein then two row so if you are 100% malt you will get a higher sugar yield with just pale two row.

This may change the flavor in a way that does not fit your palette.

The length of your ferment also depends on the original sugar content, the temperature and the yeast.

I would highly recommend testing out different variations at a small scale to see what you prefer.

[FrEwing]

I know you are looking for the more technical aspects of what make a good whiskey and in fact we are about to embark on running our own GC to track these aspects.

The thing about small distillers is innovation. When you think about it the big guys can blend up a really wonderful product by steering a result to their hearts content. You can do that as well. I would ask what is the motivation of such efforts? Speaking for myself we really don't steer our products that much. There are some wonderful 12 year old Scotches....if you could choose from 400,000 barrels you could do just fine with the same exercise. You can never win at their technology game. The big guys have labs of folks trying to keep their products from varying from day to day.....for you this variability is not a problem, but a feature.

I think you can get caught up in trying to be as good or better than the big guys. The big guys have a huge Achilles heel. They are so big that they cannot change direction on a dime. They drive container boats full of spirits and you are driving something more like a kayak or maybe a nice twin engine fishing boat. The best Coca-cola has already been made and there is no reason to make a better Coke.

Small distillers can develop a wonderful product tuned to their own locales. Have customers that know them by name and adopt them into their families. You can change your yeasts on a batch by batch basis and lead or follow any emerging trend in months not decades. The big guys are desparately trying to have the same relationships with their customers that you have been born into! Your locale mixologist would love to tell his/her customer that he/she knows YOU. That you have made with product from Jimmy's maple sugar bush or Joe's corn field on the ridge. You have been dealt a wonderful set of cards and can easily create a better white dog or any other product you like by just paying attention. Your products are lovingly HAND MADE with THESE HANDS...play the Aces you have been dealt!! You have a local connection to your local environ that some 10,000GPD distiller is trying desperately and expensively to create in their brand. You are the AUTHENTIC deal!

I just came accross this thread by chance. However the last paragraph is SOOOO True.

Dick G