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DrDistillation

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Everything posted by DrDistillation

  1. Hey Paul, can you PM a phone number to give you a call? Tried sending you an PM but no dice.
  2. I fully agree with you on the first post of what's actually happening and you can see the vapor temp rise during the run from about 87.1 to 93.3 for the hearts portion of the run while holding the ABV. I also agree you certainly can't control the boiler temp nor would you want to as it has to rise as the alcohol is removed. But when you know the temp your heads and hearts end at you can monitor vapor temps in either configuration and use that info for cut over points. Totally useful info, when you run the same batches over and over. What I dislike in threads like those are people assuming other MUST run the same way they do and dismiss using a tool a different way then they would use it. Knowing the vapor temp, you can for example slow the production as you get close to where tails come in on a pot. It will just run slower and slower, then stop producing at the vapor set point. If you just run with a set power level you'll push right past the cut over points. Just a different way of running, not better or worse, just different. Funny that you mentioned the Auber controllers. I just ordered the DSPR400 to play with. It's actually more a power regulator from what I read on it with some PID functionality thrown in, but I could be wrong. Will know how well it works in a week or two hopefully. I saw that mentioned in one of the PID threads and it caught my eye. Have you ever played with either the 220 or 400 on a small electric setup? Probably not to many people here using electric.
  3. Small type? Here's a commercial 2oz back label from Assured.
  4. I'm pretty sure the vapor temp in pot still mode was simply a PID to control the upper limit of temp allowed. So a temp could be dialed in where fores end, then heads/hearts transition. Then another where hearts/tails come it. Of course the rate would drop off which is the indication the transition is coming and you can watch/taste switch containers. This makes total sense since temperatures constantly increase during the run on a pot. It's just knowing your runs and maybe adjusting for air pressure. For reflux you'd use cooling to control vapor temperature via dephleg and a proportion control valve. Swede Olson has an older video of his controllers showing exactly how to do this using a PID and proportional control valve. He does a run at 80% likely for a light whiskey or something similar. This is what has been talked about on that site a few times but video showing how to do it get removed then admins step in with PIDs can't be used to control a still type comments. That's what I was referring to. Of course you can control it like in this video using a PID, using PLC or computer would give more options and combinations like an iStill/Genio type still but a simple PID surely works as well for simpler operation.
  5. This kind of fit in here so I thought I'd post as it's both kind of funny and sad at the same time. I also remember now why I never joined this site. https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7600904#p7600904 (some of those guys are pompous) That particular forum seems to hate any talk of anything temperature or vapor related in doing cuts or letting you know when you are near a cut point so you can monitor product closely. I've seen a few threads like this where someone tries to explain the vapor temp relationship and how you can semi-automate the still for better product but they all end up the same way taken over usually by the same set of know it all guys who just don't understand distillation. A few idiots seem to come out of the wood work every time a thread ventures into vapor temperature and how it can be used, stating everything from you can't use a PID to run a still, to you can't use a temperature gauge to anything else temperature or vapor related. It seems these "experts" simply fail to understand the relationship that vapor temperature has to the product and how to use it for rough cut points or when to start watching to switch collection containers. With a pot still your only source of control is heat and with a reflux still, you have the option of both boiler and cooling control or just cooling with your heat set at a specific point. A few have mentioned doing exactly this here. I'd love to hear these guys try to explain how large distilleries can use temperature monitoring/control or even smaller micro stills like Genio or iStill when they state it can't be done or the wrong way to run a still.
  6. You don't have to "equalize" the price because the alcohol doesn't need to be the same strength as the WHO formula. They use other ingredients that are actually better for making a hand sanitizer making it more effective as well. The CVS brand is still the best value I've seen actually sitting on shelves right now.
  7. That sounds like normal pricing pre-covid 19. I guess the big guys have ramped up production and have or nearly caught up with demand. This is a very good thing!
  8. Was just at CVS to pick up a prescription and they had a partial isle full of hand sanitizer under the CVS brand. 32 oz for $7.99 with pump bottle https://www.cvs.com/shop/cvs-health-advanced-hand-sanitizer-32-oz-prodid-348380 60 oz for $12.79 or ($27.29 retail a gallon) https://www.cvs.com/shop/cvs-health-moisturizing-hand-sanitizer-60-oz-prodid-372412 Besides being pretty reasonable on price for RETAIL, they also have the problem solved many DSP have of sourcing bottles. LOL I guess when you play the speculative spirit market buying/selling for the quick markup you sometimes get left holding the barrel. At least if it were whiskey it might get better with time unlike sanitizer which is only good for 2 to 3 years from manufacture. A fire sale or donation (with write off) is probably the best thing you can hope for right now. I want to feel bad for you, but just can't do it. Far to many people are donating product for free at their expense of normal production (lost income), labor and bottle costs. Karma is a bitch.
  9. You would need approval and new licensing/bonding because you aren't authorized to make that product. How would you get FDA approval? Keep in mind, as of right now the temporary waiver for making hand sanitizer expires at the end of June which is only 1.5 months out.
  10. I've got tons of similar stuff so if you need anything just speak up.
  11. I didn't make this but downloaded it from someone else. Copyright/contact info is in the spreadsheet. Obviously use at your own risk. Table4Calculator.ods
  12. Was just at my local CVS store and they have a full shelf of isopropyl 91% 32 oz bottles for $2.59 a bottle. They had Hydrogen Peroxide for $1.39 per 16 oz bottle. They had 6 oz bottles of Glycerin for $7.29 First Gallon cost of $19.04 with the 2nd, 3rd, etc gallon cost of $10.36 (just the isopropyl) and that's retail store prices!
  13. I'd not think so as "arts and industries" will usually refer to manufacture of cleaning fluids, detergents, proprietary antifreeze solutions, thinners, lacquers, and brake fluids; and for fuel, light, and power. As in things used in industry but not medical or pharma.
  14. From https://www.ttb.gov/public-guidance/ttb-pg-2020-1a under Guidance section it gives an overview and then lists: see See 26 U.S.C. 5214(a) This has 13 listed reasons. Besides withdrawing Ethanol for state and local government only #3 seems to apply "(3)free of tax for nonbeverage purposes and not for resale or use in the manufacture of any product for sale—" This is also the same wording used in the bulletin with the added waiver. This to me makes it clear that the product produced by the DSP is not allow to use it for any product (sanitzer) that is for sale. This is the same way I read the TTB bulletin as well. In my reading of "In addition, any existing DSP may remove undenatured or denatured ethanol from bonded premises free of tax for use by hospitals, blood banks, sanitariums, certain pathological laboratories, non-profit clinics, and qualifying educational institutions seeking to use it to manufacture hand sanitizer, and not for resale or use in the manufacture of any product for sale." from ttb bulletin linked above this states the DSP can not resale or use the product in the manufacture of a product for sale. I do not read this as the DSP is excluded and it only apply to the others listed. My reading goes with 26 U.S.C. 5214(a) as referenced which has clearer wording. Am I wrong? dhdunbar, what do you think when you read 26 U.S.C. 5214(a) as noted in the the guidance?
  15. Yea, that's a solid strategy to make measurements much easier. Great Tip!
  16. For these small amounts used, yea only weight not volume. I'd not use 10x ethanol, 10:1 but instead use 9x ethanol 9:1 so you have a 1/10th solution by weight.
  17. You're making this to complicated. No fudge factor required or wanted. You're denaturing at 20:1 and using it as is as measured after denaturing. Pick batch total volume target you will make. Calculate the Glycerin & Hydrogen peroxide needed per batch size per FDA (usa) for that size batch. Glycerin (glycerol) needs to be 1.45% v/v for the total batch size Hydrogen peroxide at 3% needs to be 0.125% v/v of volume size Calculate Ethanol needed for batch size depending on your ABV. Add water to achieve 80% after all ingredients are mixed well and rested. ---- If you're having an issue trying to calculate this shoot me a PM with your measured ABV after mixing in the 5% Isopropanol to your Ethanol. Just give me the ABV of the mixture and % of Hydrogen peroxide you have on hand. Tell me the batch size you're targeting (in liters) and I'll send you back the amount of each ingredient you need to hit your batch size at 80%.
  18. You have to understand what you're doing of course and understand that instead of measuring dry weight you'll now be using X volume instead. That may be more confusing for some than worth it. It does work great however for those who can substitute volume vs weight understanding the dilution factor. What might be easier for people doing batches less than a barrel would be switching to using a grain scale (cheap). These are scales used by jewelers and those who load bullets/shotgun shells, etc (ie 9 grain bullet). There are 437.5 grain per ounce (by weight). So instead of measuring 1/16 ounce per 100 gallons Ethanol you can measure 27.34 grains per hundred gallons. If doing 25 gallon batches of denaturing then 5.47 grains. If doing 10 gallon batches of denaturing then 2.73 grains. Either way works fine, just use what's convenient that you fully understand the weight or volume required.
  19. What kind of bitters are you looking for, what kind of quantity and how often do you need it? That will help others to respond.
  20. So how can you remove alcohol from bonded storage to make a product and sell it when it says right there the alcohol can't be used to manufacture ANY product for sale? https://www.ttb.gov/public-guidance/ttb-pg-2020-1a Any existing DSP therefore can immediately commence production of hand sanitizer or distilled spirits (ethanol) for use in hand sanitizer, as described below, without having to first obtain authorization. Any existing DSP also may remove undenatured or denatured ethanol from bonded premises free of tax for use by any state or local government to produce hand sanitizer. In addition, any existing DSP may remove undenatured or denatured ethanol from bonded premises free of tax for use by hospitals, blood banks, sanitariums, certain pathological laboratories, non-profit clinics, and qualifying educational institutions seeking to use it to manufacture hand sanitizer, and not for resale or use in the manufacture of any product for sale. Does that give the DSP the SOLE ability to manufacture a product for sale but not the others mentioned? Doubtful. Why would the TTB give a DSP tax free access to alcohol they can profit on (spirit or sanitizer)? Does it even give the DSP the ability to distribute other than to governments, hospitals, blood banks, sanitariums, certain pathological laboratories, non-profit clinics or qualifying education institutions? Unclear from what is written but in government speak, no it doesn't. The TTB guidance documents leave a lot unclear in their poorly worded guidance documents!
  21. TTB doc https://www.ttb.gov/public-guidance/ttb-pg-2020-1a has a link to FDA document https://www.fda.gov/media/136289/download Step 1 c. Hydrogen peroxide footnote 10 10 Hydrogen Peroxide Concentrate USP or Hydrogen Peroxide Topical Solution USP. Technical grade hydrogen peroxide falls within this policy if the concentration is within that of Hydrogen Peroxide Concentrate USP or Hydrogen Peroxide Topical Solution USP ------- So not a loophole but specifically spelled out. The loophole I was referring to was about selling the product as that is not mentioned in the docs. Only NOT FOR SALE sanitizer. Maybe the TTB/FDA don't care but the bulletins say otherwise. That DOES need clarification if you are thinking of trying to sell.
  22. Just follow the TTB directive and the linked FDA document for how to make hand sanitizer under the waiver and call it a day. Do each and every step. Don't go looking for other documents to try and find "loop holes". Just follow the directions as given or make phone calls for guidance.
  23. Yep, I'd much rather support a DSP marking a vodka as a "green" vodka. We don't waste energy with pot stills for marketing purposes to fool you with deceptive labels. We buy great alcohol close to pure, wholesale, filter it further using little to no energy, mix it with our unique "mineral water" and bottle it. Price it reasonable and appeal to tree huggers.
  24. To add to the above. If you call the TTB or FDA about a question on ingredients, don't sugar coat your question. Be forth coming and tell them exactly what you are seeking clarification on. IE I can't find 3% or 12% HP but can get 34% H2O2 that appears to meet your technical grade requirements. Can I use this or what do I need to verify first before use. Be specific in your questions. Ask for a resolution in writing but they will probably decline and refer you to the current waiver docs. If you can record the call for your own protection and start the call of with, this is John Doe form XYZ distillery in ZZ state, DSP-xxxx. I''m recording this call and looking for clarification on.... Then get their name and department and log it in your notes as well as the recorded phone call. You will generally not get bogus or info they guess at but will get a straight answer or get transferred to a different person who can answer knowing you are recording the call! If transferred, let them know who you are, where you're located, your DSP # and that they are being recorded. If you get someone who is reading against a checklist or seems clueless ask for a supervisor or hangup and try again. I literally talked to one person who had to check the difference between iso and ethyl. Supervisor not available, click, redial. If you get an answer the ingredients don't match what they require go back to the drawing board and look some more or just produce spirits for sale. Many DSP have switched over production to Sanitizer which WILL affect availability of some spirits in 2 to 4 years. That may sound calluse but if you can't make a sanitizer product today you might as well be in business 5 to 10 years from now when the next crisis appears that you can help with. Very few businesses are jumping in to help with the crisis in the way DSP have (at a loss) and if you've tried but failed, get past it, survive and come back to fight another day! Not to get political, but the country/world is likely going to go through a major recession due to Covad-19. If you keep your DSP operational and keep people employed then hang your head high long term as that is x amount of people you kept off unemployment and contributing via all the taxes involved. DSPs contribute a substantially higher amount via taxes to the IRS (if in USA) then 99.9+% of other businesses so keep that in mind. Even if you can't produce sanitizier you are helping the economy by staying alive and keeping people employed and paying all our taxes we pay that others benefit from!
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