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Alex_Sor last won the day on July 7

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About Alex_Sor

  • Birthday 07/08/1968

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    physics, electronics, vacuum distillation, sci fi

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  1. To fully utilize one 379,000 BTU hot water boilers, you will need a cooling system that pumps 1,030.3 gallons per hour of water through it, with an inlet temperature of 20 Celsius. This is a large volume of water ... In this case, the area of the alcohol condenser (the area of heat exchange in the condenser) should be 0.8--1 square meters. The water temperature at the outlet of the cooling system will be about 44 degrees, and you can get up to 17.4 gallons of alcohol per hour at the outlet, with a temperature of 43 Celsius. These are big numbers...
  2. Underwater winery in Croatia Croatian grape growing and winemaking traditions date back to ancient Greek settlers who used amphorae to store their wine. This tradition is about 2500 years old. The owners of the Edivo Vina winery (Ivo Šegović, Anto Šegovic, Edi Bajurin) came up with an ingenious idea that could be one of the reasons to visit Croatia. Winemakers in love with their craft have mixed history, sea, underwater world, fine wine and pure pleasure in one bottle. This is how the first underwater winery in Croatia was founded. You've probably already heard about the city of Dubrovnik, very close to it, literally around the corner, there is a small town of Drace, on the Pelješac peninsula. This is where the underwater winemaking villa is located, which is now open to visitors. This means you too can dive with the winery staff and learn how to store their premium Plavac Edivo wine. The process of creating such a wine takes several years. The winery owners describe it like this: “We bottle fine Dalmatian wine and place it in terracotta amphorae. These vessels are sent to the bottom of the sea to a depth of 18-25 meters. All of them are perfectly stored, corked and aged in bottles under water for one to two years. As a result, an ideal thermal state is obtained, a beautiful layer of shells and algae appears on the amphora. The wine does not lose a drop of its aroma, quality or color. Free cooling in ideal conditions and the wonderful underwater silence only enhance the quality of the wine. Try it and see for yourself. Bring home a unique souvenir from the depths of the Adriatic Sea. " But if you are not inspired by the idea of diving into the water in search of unique experiences and wine, you can buy them at the wine shop from the owners of this amazing winery. It will be an incredible vacation gift. Who doesn't want to take a piece of history with them in an amphora that has stood under water for two years and is covered with sea plants, shells, corals and algae. If you are traveling in Dalmatia, try the local cuisine with a glass of Plavac Edivo wine.
  3. In another topic on this forum, I spoke about "storage in barrels". I believe that in the 21st century it is necessary to apply newer technologies than the old ones. Shooting alcohol through the walls of the barrels for evaporation is a waste of money and resources.
  4. Hugo, if you want a more accurate answer from me, then you need to provide me with more information. Thermal Engineering and Thermodynamics is a complex science with many non-linear relationships. You can't just take one thing and multiply it by two It doesn't matter how many plates you have in the column. The important thing is that you have a dephlegmator. This means that you will have an adjustable reflux ratio in your moonshine still. I do not know the area of the heat transfer surfaces in your dephlegmator and your condenser-cooler. In my calculations, I have taken a reflux ratio of 1.8. If you have a different reflux ratio, the calculations will change. So, for example, if the reflux ratio is = 1.1 this will give an alcohol release rate of 16.1 liters per hour. F, (square centimeters) = 1197.0 (increase). With the same water flow rate (600 liters per hour from 20 degrees inlet), the condenser outlet temperature will be 47.9 degrees Celsius. The dephlegmator will enter +47.9 degrees water, and it should not boil. Calculations (rough calculation) tell us that with reflux ratio = 1.8 and alcohol yield = 12.1 liters per hour, the surface area of the reflux condenser F, (square centimeters) should be = 1642.9. This is more than the heat transfer area of the condenser. In this case, at the exit from the reflux condenser, we get = 76.5 degrees Celsius. This is very hot water! And it will be 600 liters per hour! I would recommend doing air cooling. For example, how people who have little money do it: What is stand-alone cooling and how is it used? The autonomous cooling system works according to the following principle: water (that is, coolant) is pumped from the tank to the refrigerator (2) so that alcohol vapors condense. In this case, the liquid heats up and flows to the lower inlet of the radiator (3). The fan (3) and radiator from the car, cools the water to the ambient temperature. After that, the water returns through the upper pipe to the container (4). (5 = pump)
  5. It looks like you have a calculation error and did not provide complete data for your installation. For example, it is not clear to me how fast you are going to get alcohol? I'll calculate (roughly) myself from your data. And it turns out that you have an error of about two times. The results of my calculation program: The volume of a tank with beer (mash) = 600 liters. Let's assume that the strength of the mash = 9%. The reflux ratio is taken equal to = 1.8 The results of calculating the moonshine still: alcohol withdrawal rate = 12.064 liters per hour. power input to the tank 600 liters = 20kW (68240 BTU). Refrigerant (water) temperature at the refrigerator inlet t1, Celsius = 20.0 Water flow through the cooling system Q, liters per minute = 25.0, this corresponds to = 1500 liters per hour. Average temperature difference between alcohol vapor and refrigerant dtav, Celsius = 70.82 The minimum required cooling area (calculated) F, square centimeters = 795.0 (this is the surface area of all tubes of the shell-and-tube cooler). Leaving water temperature in the cooling system t1 ', Celsius = 31.2 Conclusion from the calculation: at an input of 20 Celsius and an alcohol capacity of 12 liters of alcohol per hour, running water flowing 1500 liters per hour, heats up by only 31.2-20 = 11.2 degrees Celsius. Okay, let's assume that the cooling water flows 10 liters per minute or 600 liters per hour, at an inlet temperature of 20 degrees. Then we get: The minimum required cooling area (calculated) F, square centimeters = 898.0 (this is the surface area of all tubes of the shell-and-tube cooler). Leaving water temperature in the cooling system t1 ', Celsius = 47.9 Conclusion from the second calculation: at an input of 20 Celsius and an alcohol capacity of 12 liters of alcohol per hour, running water flowing 600 liters per hour will heat up by only 47.9-20 = 27.9 degrees Celsius. This is a calculation for an alcohol (alcohol) condenser when a moonshine still operates with a tank of 600 liters and a power of 20 kW of supplied energy, the alcohol output is 12 liters per hour. Hugo, do you have a complete calculation of your setup? I mean a full calculation of the installation work per day? My opinion: for a 20kW heating power, I would not build such a large and expensive cooling unit like yours. This is a lot of money. ...One truck cooling radiator + fan + water pump with speed control is enough.
  6. Local tribes in Africa, in some places, still get fire with flint or by rubbing two sticks This does not mean at all that we all have to make fire in exactly the same way.
  7. How does oak affect the distillate? During the infusion of alcohol on wood chips, several simultaneous processes occur. A mixture of alcohol and water penetrates the pores of the wood and flushes out the sap of the tree, which changes the taste, color and smell of alcohol. If the surface of the wood was subjected to heat treatment, then under the influence of alcohol and water, the destroyed chains of cellulose and lignin are converted into simple sugars, that is, glucose, fructose. These sugars also mix with alcohol to give it a distinct flavor. In addition, alcohol interacts with tannins that impregnate the bark and wood of oak, as a result of which some of these substances get into the alcohol, changing its taste. Oak chips give the drink a cognac color and taste, which not everyone likes, therefore, to improve the taste and color, it is processed in various ways, the most popular of which are roasting and soaking. During caramelization, the chemical chains of cellulose and lignin break down into simple sugars (monosaccharides), which enter the distillate and change its flavor. Due to the insignificant amount of monosaccharides, they cannot radically change the taste of alcohol, but they can give it a flavor and make it more memorable. Depending on the temperature and roasting time, the influence of oak wood on alcohol changes. The use of chips of minimum roast (temperature 120-160 degrees, time 2-3 hours) gives the distillate a light smell and vanilla flavor. Medium roasting (temperature 180-200 degrees, time 6-10 hours) gives the drink a taste and smell of caramel. Maximum roasting (temperature 200-220 degrees, time 15-20 hours) fills the alcohol-containing liquid with the aroma and taste of dark chocolate. There is no perfect recipe for roasting, because it is impossible to accurately determine the effect of this process on the final product. To do this, it is necessary to conduct a series of experiments, but even this approach does not guarantee that those who decide to repeat it will have the same results. After all, the assessment of the taste and smell of the tincture is based on subjective perception, so much depends on who will take the sample. Nevertheless, the general principles of roasting are the same - the wood is exposed to hot air or open fire, constantly monitoring the state of the chips. If the temperature during frying is less than 120 degrees, then there is no destruction of the chains of polysaccharides. At temperatures above 220 degrees, not only polysaccharides are destroyed, but also monosaccharides, which react with oxygen and oxidize to form scorched areas. Therefore, it is necessary to experiment, keeping within the temperature range of 120-220 degrees Celsius. There are no clear proportions of alcohol and oak chips. Some masters declare that 5-10 grams of wood chips are enough for a liter of moonshine, chacha or other distillate, others declare the need to use 20-50 grams.
  8. 1) My advice on bourbon is correct because a) it has already been done and there is a result. And the result is completely controllable, as opposed to "long holding in barrels". Here's an example: https://techcrunch.com/2020/10/07/bespoken-spirits-raises-2-6m-in-seed-funding-to-combine-machine-learning-and-accelerated-whiskey-aging/ And here is a photo from my example: We sell several varieties of American Whiskey in our supermarkets. If I don’t like Whiskey it doesn’t mean that I didn’t drink it and it doesn’t mean at all that I cannot make it. 2) The USA is an interesting country Whiskey producers have made Laws according to which the word Whiskey should be called a drink made in only one, laborious way. This is the protection of the economic interests of the old manufacturer, nothing more. But if we are talking about Chemistry and taste, then Whiskey is a simple technological process that does not require many years of production and aging.
  9. Great article! It is the best possible way, it shows the inability of people to see the forest behind the first trees As for me, I love vodka. It's just a mixture of alcohol and water. Nothing extra All other drinks, in general, are a mixture of alcohol, water, and many different impurities, some of which can kill or stop your heart (potassium ions for example). Bourbon, in simple terms, is alcohol + water + juice from freshly roasted (Maillard reaction) oak juice So why do you need barrels at all? The article gives all the hints If I was doing a startup producing bourbon with the smell of oak barrels, I would never use barrels and the whole manufacturing process would have been no more than a month or two before the release of the first batch of bourbon. In order to get whiskey no worse than Jim Beam you only need about 1-2 grams of fried oak chips per 1.5 liters of alcohol + ultrasonic bath. The whole process takes a couple of minutes. The main challenge (and time) will be in mixing the test samples and getting exactly the flavor you want. But it’s a pleasant process you don’t need to wait for it for 2 years. And the investor will receive his first industrial bourbon after a month of experimentation. I live in Ukraine, we do not make Whiskey we drink vodka and moonshine as well as fruit liqueurs. But if you really want to make bourbon, then I can help you do it without hundreds of thousands of dollars in costs for building warehouses and buying barrels. We live in the 21st century, and you need to understand exactly that if you want to make money, then you need to use modern technologies that allow you to achieve results quickly and reliably. The repeatability should be 90% -100%, no dependence on weather, sea waves, air density, etc. Only a controlled environment and strict adherence to the production technology (procedure) will lead to 100% success.
  10. We're talking about different things I'm talking about the fact that the production technology should be repeatable and the same from year to year. This topic began with the question "can you store barrels on the street (outside under the sky)?" I wrote my opinion (technology + temperature). We read Wikipedia: "Aged in barrels. The total number of Jim Beam barrels in stock in 2015 was about 1.9 million (approximately 380 million liters or 100 million gallons). All of them are stored in nine-storey warehouses. These warehouses are the tallest in the industry. The higher the barrel is stored in the warehouse, the hotter it is in summer. During these thermal cycles, the barrels expand and open the pores of the wood. Due to aging, bourbon acquires vanilla and caramel notes, despite the fact that sugar is not used in the production. In addition, the color of the bourbon changes from colorless to golden brown. " It is nowhere written here that Jim Beam barrels are stored in the open air A warehouse is a room with a controlled environment. The level of control is a question. And I think no one will tell us the details.
  11. I shrug ... I believe that you should always remember that in addition to quick money, there is also reputation and quality. If you chase money and do not follow the production technology of the drink, then in the end it will be incomprehensible what, under the sign (label), which does not correspond to the content. Jim Beam whiskey has been following the technology for many years. Jim Beam wouldn't be who he is if he was just chasing money and "keeping barrels on the street because it's cheaper."
  12. What are we arguing about? See the picture: Can you see the irrigation system? Water is sprayed onto the drums to reduce their temperature and reduce the evaporation of alcohol through the walls of the drums. And one more thing: the article talks about wine and not about Whiskey. Wine has less% alcohol. And now the quote: "... Behind the front building at the Maison of Noilly Prat is a courtyard, and in this courtyard are 2,000 barrels where the picpoul and clairette wines age separately outdoors for a full year, oxidizing and taking on aspects of the salty sea air. ... " 1) it speaks of one kind of wine only. 2) do you have "salty sea air"? We are talking about different things. I repeat what I wrote - aging in barrels requires a constant stable temperature, if you want to have an alcoholic drink with strictly defined properties, and not "this year's wine, but sorry, we had a dry summer, so the taste is different from what you are used to drinking in a bottle, under this name ".
  13. From all that you have described here, it is absolutely impossible to understand what you want to produce and what should be provided technically. To start the calculations (technical calculations of the Plant's productivity), not so many parameters are needed: 1) what exactly are you going to produce? What types of drinks? 2) Will you be aging in oak barrels? If yes, for how long? a year, two, three? ... 3) What kind of work is expected? Seasonal? (we work in the summer, we stand in the winter). 4) What productivity per day is needed? (in liters of alcohol at the outlet, and what is the strength of the alcohol?) 5) what are your heating capacities (electricity? Firewood? Other?) Expected in the place where the distillery will be built? If you answer these questions, I can roughly (roughly) calculate what you will need in terms of capacities and volumes of tanks
  14. No one stores barrels "outside" (in an open area) because the process of obtaining drinks requires a stable temperature. To store drinks in an oak barrel, the following air temperature must be maintained: dessert wine and other light alcoholic products: 10-14°C (Celsius) (the ideal temperature is 12 ° C); table wine: 8-10°С; cognac and other strong alcohol: 14-20°С (optimum temperature 16°С). You will not be able to maintain such a stable temperature if you keep the drums without a stable temperature. You ruin the drinks You need to find an underground storage, or a container with thick walls (thermal protection) in which it is possible to maintain a stable temperature.
  15. I don’t understand a little what will be your benefit? When buying ready-made drinks from others (alcohol), you will already pay someone (the Drink Seller) for the product itself + all the Seller's local taxes that they will pay in their state. Then you will have transportation costs, which will also fall on you. And only then can you get the drinks (alcohol) and start the mixing process. Well, then you will have to add your earnings (profit) to the price that you have already received as the "entry price". This is a very long way and your profit will be much lower than if you yourself built a distillery and yourself were engaged in the production of drinks and mixing them. If you are interested in my opinion, then I think that the path that you want to go is ineffective (in terms of profit in money).
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