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Alex_Sor last won the day on August 27

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    physics, electronics, vacuum distillation, sci fi

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  1. Do you have a lot of extra time? for the third and fourth slow distillation? Can it be easier to do just one run under vacuum? I do not understand such advice - "do everything slowly and for a long time".
  2. you need to apply vacuum distillation. this will not waste so much time on distillation, and allows you to more accurately trim the impurities. At the heart of the problem, you need something akin to gas or liquid chromatography. This can be done in several ways, but the simplest is vacuum distillation. This way, you can select part of the head, part of the body and part of the tails on the same setup in one pass.
  3. There is a common problem: distillation columns require great heights because they use gravitational temperature separation in height. Do you want to use 10 plates? This will not give you alcohol above 89-92% ... To get high purity alcohol (94-95.5%) you need at least 24, preferably 45-48 plates. You need to think about using vacuum distillation, it gives the best purity at low temperatures. As for low ceilings, there is a horizontal stripping column solution. It can have a height of only 1-2 meters but about 10-20 steps (plates).
  4. you need to read about "palenque" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pálinka
  5. in Physics this is called "phase transition". a simple example: until all the water in your kettle boils away (as long as there is liquid water in the kettle), the temperature of the kettle will never exceed 100 Celsius. (at atmospheric pressure). Only when all the liquid turns into vapor will the temperature rise again. In the case of a mixture of alcohol and water, the boiling point depends on the concentration of alcohol and water. When the alcohol vaporizes, the rest of the liquid boils at a higher temperature. If you do not want to steam up the "tails" then you need to use vacuum distillation instead of classical.
  6. Archi or arak is the most famous and traditional strong alcoholic drink made from milk, which was widespread in Siberia and Central Asia. Depending on the country and region, it varied in strength, raw materials and manufacturing procedure. Since archi is not a fermented drink like kumis, but a distillation product, great technical knowledge and special equipment are needed for its production. Traditionally, the Mongols made it in special distillation apparatus. It is believed that it was Genghis Khan and his warriors who brought this skill with them to the conquered lands, although the art of distillation itself originated in the Arab world, presumably in Iraq. Soyots, unlike the Mongols, made milk vodka not from fermented mare's milk, but from fermented cow's milk whey. After separating the milk into cream and whey, milk yeast was added to the latter, the whey was fermented and a light alcoholic sour drink called "hurunge" was obtained, which compensated for the lack of vitamins and microelements necessary for the body. And milk vodka was prepared like this: about one and a half buckets of khurunge were poured into the cauldron. At a distance of 2 arshins from the boiler, a wooden tub ("khyiber") was placed, half filled with cold water. A cast-iron jug ("tanha") with a tightly attached wooden lid was lowered into it. Two holes were made in the lid: one an inch in diameter, central, and the other side - very small, through which a measuring stick was passed into the jug to determine the amount of the finished drink. The cauldron was also closed with a lid, in which there was a hole with a diameter of one vershok. The cauldron and the jug, which served as a refrigerator, were connected by a curved, elbowed wooden tube ("surgo"). The ends of the tube were placed over the holes in the lids of the cauldron and jug. Then all the cracks in the lids and the joints of the tube with the boiler and the jug were coated with clay. If there was no clay, it was coated with cow dung. A fire was made under the cauldron, and the khurunge began to boil. The steam passed through the tube into the jug, cooled and turned into a liquid "tarasun". After 45 minutes from the start of the boil, 1 liter of a fairly strong drink was obtained. The longer they boiled, the weaker the tarasun turned out. If the khurunge was good, that is, the milk was fat, then the tarasun was obtained with a strength of up to 20 degrees, from a bad khurunge they received tarasun at 10-12 degrees. If the tarasun was distilled several times, then an even stronger tarasun was obtained, which is called "archi". The alcohol content in it was such that when ignited, the arch burned. It was prepared as a reserve in case of feasts, and the tarasun was drunk immediately hot.
  7. Good questions. I numbered them for accuracy. (1) Thermodynamics has never been an exact science The advent of computers made it possible to solve many problems at the same time, and choose from them those that are most suitable for the real situation. For example, the "Free Area Ratio of the Dry Packing" is 0.44 and the "Free Area Ratio of the Wet Packing" is 0.3. What I have given above (picture) is calculated with an approximate safety factor of 1.1. In calculations from old textbooks, it was recommended to use from 1.1 to 1.3. If we are talking about the full calculation of the column, then everything is more complicated. The diameter of the column is calculated based on the required productivity for alcohol at the outlet, this gives us the steam velocity inside the column, then we calculate the volumetric flow rate of alcohol steam and water vapor inside the column, while taking into account the flow area of the holes (caps or sink holes). Complex formula Then we choose the diameter of the column closest to the calculated size, while the Vapor Velocity is considered normal if it is within 0.5-1.2 meters / second. We calculate the minimum steam velocity in the holes of the plate. The shape of the caps or holes is also important, you can create a column that will work well at 2-5 meters per second steam velocity. We calculate the hydraulic resistance of the tray at the top of the column. This will affect choking (coughing). And only then we do the "Thermal calculation of the installation". We calculate the consumption of heat given off to the cooling water in the reflux condenser. We do this for different reflux numbers, and choose something in between. After that we can calculate the "Dephlegmator surface". Heat losses and efficiency of the reflux condenser (or cooler) are calculated separately, taking into account the thickness of the walls of the tubes, the number of tubes, turbulence inside the reflux condenser, etc. There are a lot of formulas There are a lot of tables of correspondence of theoretical calculations and tests in real devices. But ... it can all be boiled down to a "safety factor". The mathematical model allows you to "play with numbers" in 10 minutes and get the answer you need, with the required safety margin (performance). This is Engineering Creativity I like creating things. Especially those that no one created, or believes that it is impossible to create them. (2) The capacitor in the picture is, yes, 100%, but its calculations usually take a safety factor of 1.1. I can very accurately count the capacitor separately. (3) "Practical heat transfer" is a very vague concept. I can apply a $100 solution to a dephlegmator that will increase its efficiency by a factor of 1.6 to 2.2. But I can do everything "according to the textbook" and get an efficiency of 60% instead of 90% ... Thermodynamics and "vortex processes" cannot be calculated accurately. Only mathematical modeling of flows makes it possible to roughly understand which of the solutions will be better for a particular job. as an example of what I am saying, I will give a new picture I played with numbers and got a more effective picture. I have translated the inscriptions into English. "cm3 per hour" is the cubic centimeter of the volume of alcohol per hour.
  8. I have a mathematical model that takes into account (and calculates) all flows of water and alcohol vapor in a condenser and reflux condenser. Here is a picture of the model working. It shows what temperatures are at the inlets and outlets of the alcohol refrigerator, vapor condenser, and reflux condenser. Selection of 25 liters of pure alcohol per hour (in the picture), with a heater power of 16 kilowatts. The model allows you to "play with numbers" and see what happens at different speeds of water and different powers. It is a "closed model" that uses a conventional (car-type) radiator(green color) to exchange heat between ambient air and cooling water. Therefore, the temperature of the coldest water here = 35 Celsius. Main circuit water flow = 15 liters per minute, reflux condenser water flow = 7 liters per minute. Temperature at the inlet to the reflux condenser = 38.8 Celsius, at the outlet = 65.3 Celsius. Please note that a water flow of 15 liters per minute heats up in the alcohol condenser from only 35.6 to 38.8 Celsius! At the same time, the condensation power is 3 kilowatts, which gives the condensation of alcohol 12 liters per hour in this place. The model shows that only 3.144 degrees Celsius from the cooling water is used for this. This is one of the mathematical models for simulating the operation of a distiller that I have.
  9. Please indicate in this thread what I wrote incorrectly. In this thread. What, in your opinion, contradicts Physics. I write my opinion and explain it. If you personally do not understand, then this is not my problem. The laws of physics do not depend on your mood and your opinion. I'm not going to argue with those who do not want to delve deeply into the processes. This will be an argument between a blind man and a deaf one
  10. What does barrels have to do with the work of a dephlegmator? You do not understand either theory or practice, but are you trying to judge me?
  11. I'm talking about what I know (taught and understood the issue) and what I myself have tested in practice. I have my own designs for distillation equipment, which I first calculated and developed, and then tested in real work. Without the Theory of "how it works" there is no point in doing practice. The balance of energies is what matters. If you calculate the balance of energy input and cold water output, you will always get very good results.
  12. no need to pretend to be stupid I believe, and I am sure, that before doing something, you need to study the Theory of "how it works". It's not as difficult as it sounds. And this (study) does not require an advanced degree from you the usual curiosity of the boy Smaller temperature differences in the dephlegmator allow for smoother control. Yes it is. But why ? And the answer is simple: cold water can take more energy from the condensation process. And a small amount (mass) of very cold water leads to great results. That is: if you slightly change the mass of flowing cold water, and the mass of warm water, you will get different results. Because you will remove more heat from the process if the water is very cold. Am I making it clear? We have a variable value: this is the "degree of coldness of water" and, there is a constant, a constant (relatively) and stable value = this is the condensation temperature of steam in the reflux condenser. This is a "phase transition" and it stabilizes its temperature. the smaller the temperature difference, the more options for the rate of water supply to the dephlegmator, and the easier the regulation.
  13. I will repeat once again: you consider the distillation process as a set of disparate facts, but it is a complex but interrelated process, and in the process of distillation there are two "natural stabilizers" - two phase transitions. It is not necessary to search for temperatures, but to control the supply and removal of heat. If you supply too much cold energy (remove heat from the process), then you knock down the smooth flow of the process. And you get clogging.
  14. I wrote what I wrote and what I wanted to write. Regardless of your thoughts, there is Physics and Chemistry. Physics interests us in its section "gas-liquid phase transition". So, if you have a distillation process, and your equipment is correctly calculated, then you do not need any electronic "control devices". The whole process takes place independently and accurately and harmoniously. Phase transition gas-liquid (in the condenser) and liquid-gas (in the distillation tank) are Physical Process Stabilizers. No electronics needed at all. From the control, only "cooling water flow" and "heating power" (stable) are needed. The use of warmer water in the reflux condenser reduces the "thermal head" (I do not know how this concept is translated into English), which allows a smaller temperature gradient in the reflux condenser tubes, and this leads to better stability of operation.
  15. Everything is correct. The role of the condenser-alcohol cooler and the reflux condenser is different. It is important for the condenser to turn all the alcohol vapor into liquid and cool the alcohol. For a reflux condenser, it is important not to condense all the alcohol, but to do just partial condensation. If you supply very cold water to the dephlegmator, you run the risk of disrupting the normal flow of the process. Why? because there will be a very large temperature difference between cold water and alcohol vapor. If you supply water to the dephlegmator after the alcohol condenser-cooler, this water will be heated to 30-40 degrees Celsius, this will not cause a "condensation shock" in the dephlegmator. You will get a stable dephlegmator performance.
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