paul@mbroland.com

Well you somewhat answered your question without realizing it: -Class 2; whisky. “Whisky” is an alcoholic distillate from a fermented mash of grain produced at less than 190° proof in such manner that the distillate possesses the taste, aroma, and characteristics generally attributed to whisky, stored in oak containers. -Look at "corn whisk(e)y" as simply a subgenre of "whisky." It is simply a type of whisky that needs to be at least 80% corn, the other 20% still needs to be grain, but what type of grain is up to you. If you want to make a product that is classified as a "distilled spirits specialty," than you must submit a formula and the feds will tell you what you can call it. If you are going to use BOTH grain and sugar, than your product is a "distilled spirits specialty" and you need to submit a formula. In all likelihood, the feds will respond with you having to call your product "spirits distilled from X % grain & Y % cane sugar/sugarcane." There is no legal term for moonshine, that would be considered a part of your fanciful name. When in doubt, submit a formula. Because, when you DO NOT submit a formula, YOU are formulation and it is EXPECTED that what you submit on your label is correct as the standard for identity for that product. For example, if you call a product a "whisky" or a "corn whisky," and your product has any part of a cane sugar or sugarcane product in it, than you are erroneously labeling that product and you could, in theory, have it pulled from the shelf and/or end up spending thousands of dollars in redoing labels/explaining to the feds on why you screwed up. Fun fun.

We have a simple model 60 and go through approximately 1500-2500 lb/week. If you plan on doing more, they obviously have models that do far more than that. http://www.csbellco.com/bell-grinders-applications.asp

http://homedistiller.org/grain/wash-grain/recipes Actually some good information on this site, check it out, as well as their forums, as well as this one: http://www.artisan-distiller.org/ IMHO, it would greatly benefit you to learn the basics of beer brewing as it is legal to do and (especially for malt) will get you some practice working with grains. All whiskey mashes are basically just an unhopped beer, working with rye or corn can be a different story though.

What do you plan to make?

As a former soldier who got out of the military, got a PE SBA loan, and then went straight into this business, I think I can add some perspective to this. First off, your aforementioned "transition specialists" aren't bankers, lenders, or industry personnel. I'm sure many/all of them are very nice people and they MAY have some financial/business experience. However, the ones I dealt with weren't the best benchmark with regards to prepping for bank lenders, they were civilians paid by the Army to help soldiers get a job. If you know anyone in the banking/lending world that you can go backdoor to and at least get them to look at your plan/financials to give you an idea of where you would stand in their world, that would be your best way to gauge things. This isn't someone you want to get the loan through, this is merely someone that can give you you their honest assessment. This can be someone in a different state that is maybe a relative or family friend. The only way you'll know what lenders think is if you can get an opinion from a lender. Case in point, my wife works at a bank. She got someone she knew to look at things. We then went to ANOTHER bank and pitched the plan there. I also worked with our local SBA office in Nashville. The folks there that looked at my stuff were very, very helpful and they had a business/financial background. The lady at the business development center is likely a paid govt employee with little to no business background or experience, I'd likely lump her into the same category as the "transition specialists." Also keep in mind that even though you likely think/know a craft/micro distillery is a great idea and you understand the growth of the industry, realize that this is a crazy business to propose to just about anyone who knows little to nothing about spirits in general. After spending 2 years on my business plan, 1 year getting the business set up/licensed, and now in our fourth year of doing business, I've learned that there are many individual factors involved with regards to one getting a successful craft/micro distillery going. It is true, you can certainly get one going on not a huge amount, specifically when it comes to equipment. However, most of my upfront/immediate ongoing cost was not in equipment, it was on our site (electricity, water, concrete), PRODUCTION COSTS (bottles, corks, labels, grain, yeast), marketing/design costs, and the wonderful dust collection tax imposed by the fact that you can't turn on your equipment until you're fully licensed (so you're probably paying rent, insurance, and some utilities for at least a few months). Plus, even if it's just you doing the "magical mystery tour" from place to place to get your product on shelves, you still need money for gas/hotels/food. Something you can do to really prove to a lender that you're serious and know what you're talking about is to visit as many similar places as you can, talk to people in the industry (ADI Conference would be an efficient, easy way to do that), and really have a good idea of what reality is/would be for you and your future business. I don't plug our course that we offer to fill the seats, we do it less for making money and more for providing individuals a quality day of instruction that is efficient for both myself and them (if I spoke with the 1-2 individuals each month that want to come by and spend several hours talking business I wouldn't have time sleep as I still work 7 days/week). But, one or more classes/courses definitely would help your pitch to a lender who is going to be thinking to him/herself "a microdistillery, what the heck is he talking about....???"

We're centrally located to many, in Western Kentucky, about an hour from Nashville, TN. Our class is about as all-inclusive as it gets on the production/business/starting up sides. It's only one day and we tend to fill up several weeks in advance. You can find otu more on our website http://mbrdistillery.com/Camp_Distillery.html.

If you're in an area where you can visit some places, I suggest you do so and take a tour or two. There's also multiple one/two-day courses out there that weren't available not very long ago. It's a far different world than when I was in your shoes 5 years ago.

Please understand that I am being completely professional and do not want to offend you. However, I wouldn't bank anything as far as actual industry numbers/decisions on this matter on what you learn on an online forum. You're talking to owner/operators and distillers that are in different parts of the country (& world in some cases), making different products that may or may not have anything whatsoever to do with your target market, with different goals and experiences. I would recommend that you find an accountant/industry professional that you can discuss this with along with other information that you put together based on a realistic industry analysis, also including taking into account other similar businesses in your local area (may not necessarily be a distillery). Case in point, I started up my distillery for a fraction of what you're figuring, and I spent over 2 years visiting places, talking to people, and crunching a LOT of numbers. Maybe you want to treat it as a normal business and get investment (pretend the aging product doesn't exist for the first year or two), and base any outside funding off of reality once you've gotten things going. Plus, everyone wants to take the pretty girl out to the prom (not the hypothetical pretty girl), so attracting outside investment may be a bit easier once you've gotten going. But, with that being said, don't let more than 49% of your business go unless you're starting the business in order to just flip it. And, if you're doing that, I'll stop here.

You would likely need to go through formulation.

Whatever is local is best imho, cheaper (material cost), good for your story (marketing), and adds to your product's uniqueness as opposed to getting your grain from where everyone else gets theirs.

I think the best way to really think about a gift shop/tasting room is that it is like running a completely separate business in itself. When we opened it was me and only me and I'd bounce from the distillery (production) to the tasting room (retail) to my office (admin) like a pingpong ball. Even with two people it can get a little hectic on an easygoing monday or tuesday if you happen to get a rush of customers. If you're in a WELL-POPULATED and/or TOURISM-oriented area, say, I don't know... Hawaii??? Or maybe New Orleans or a city like Louisville where maybe people would look for distilleries are some other good examples. However, even if you're in the wrong part of town in what you think would be the right town (I've spoken to a few in that situation), it may be be worse than being 15 miles off the beaten path, it REALLY depends. I'd wager to say that 75% + of all of us smaller, mom & pop start-up craft distilleries would prefer to do most, if not all, of our business out of a gift shop/tasting room because working with distributors requires time, money and travel, whereas working on your site is a lot easier to control/train others to do. We're now in our fourth year of business, our gift shop really helps out a lot with regards to paying a lot of bills. However, it took 2+ years for that to happen. Furthermore, WHAT product(s) you make will obviously play a large part in driving sales. We have 12 products, and I think that helps increase sales in both volume and the market for our products. If you only make a vodka or a whiskey, you'll be limited to mainly that market and only those interested in those products will make a point to seek you out. I guess my final answer is if you do plan to run a gift shop/tasting room, don't expect it to pay for itself for a while, like a year or two while.

Folks, We've got a handful of seats left for our APR 8TH one-day workshop, "Camp Distillery" here at MB Roland Distillery in Kentucky. Also, if there are any slots left after March 1st, the cost goes from $350/person to $400. We cover mashing, distilling, bottling, proofing, general spirits regulations, licensing planning/considerations, marketing/distribution concepts, and a little bit of whatever the individual attendees direct the discussion towards. This is a highly beneficial course for those with no direct experience in production & marketing as we present it to you from the perspective of someone that's learned many hard lessons in our 4 years in business. More information about the course can be found on our website at http://mbrdistillery...Distillery.html. Give us a call at 270-640-7744 or shoot us an e-mail at info@mbrdistillery.com. We have also teamed up with Trident Stills & Welding. Trident Welding is located in Maine, all of their equipment is made here in America at very reasonable prices to a very high quality of standard. They are an outstanding option for operations requiring equipment for your entire process, large and small. MB Roland does not currently run any of Trident's equipment, as it was not available when we began our startup, so our opinion is not influenced by an individual partnership or kickbacks. As we at MB Roland grow, it is our intention to integrate Trident's equipment throughout our distillery due to our opinion of their level of quality and pricing. Trident Stills has expressed confidence in our curriculum and, as a result, has generously offered as an incentive to course participants a $350 coupon (minimum order required) toward Trident Stills equipment which will offset the cost of the course. You can find more out about Trident at www.tridentwelding.com.

The TTB website, WWW.TTB.GOV, is a wonderful thing. If you plan to get into this business you need to learn it well, specifically the regulations and the reporting requirements. All distilled spirits report forms can be found: http://www.ttb.gov/spirits/forms.shtml Excise Taxes in particular: http://www.ttb.gov/forms/helpful_hints500024.shtml

If you have a solid plan to do mostly, if not all, retail sales, a 30-50 gal could get you going. However, if you plan to do any real amount of distribution, I'd start at 100-150 gal, depending on your process. If you're in the world (budget) of much larger than that, you should already know the answer, be able to figure it out, or be working with someone that can answer/figure it out for you.

We have built ourselves up as a destination, but it's taken 3+ years to do enough business to really rely on and we're just outside a city with over 100K people and one mile off the interstate, we also hold music events during the summer where we'll have 500+ people out here on one saturday. IMHO, you need to make your plan to assume that retail business (if you can sell on site) is just gravy, plain and simple. With time, effort, and ideas that draw people in you can make money, but a few interested folks coming in due to initial media-related buzz is about as good as you should expect. With few examples (ie, "Ole Smoky" in Gatlinburg, a MAJOR tourist destination), there is no way to safely plan on retail traffic paying your bills unless you are simply very, very, very small with little to no debt. Think of it like this, how many restaurants have opened near you and it takes you months or even years to finally stop in and check it out? Now if you're not in a traffic spot where people walk or drive by day after day and they're constantly reminded that you're there, it may take a while for them to figure out you exist if you're "out of town."

amen my brother.

http://www.ehow.com/...anies-fail.html It doesn't matter if you're making spirits or pencil erasers, it's all the same. I would challenge anyone doing a business plan for a microdistillery to pretend you're making something that you're NOT passionate about, thereby removing the emotion from your numbers. Your passion will help carry you through the process and allow you to enjoy what you're making, but in the end it's simply business. You're going to survive, thrive, or fail.

In my humble opinion, the information already contained in past posts with regards to stills is about as good as you'll get via this or any forum. The only way that you're going to come to a conclusion on what you need for your setup is to continue to look into the industry. Go visit other distilleries (call ahead and pre-schedule anything if you plan to do more than just go on a simple tour), go to workshops and classes, they'll be worth the money if not for just seeing their operation up close and personally. We specifically started our one-day course because of folks asking about working here for a day to learn the ropes. If I were to have taken a course like ours prior to setting things up, I probably would've saved tens of thousands of dollars, but there weren't near as many options for things like that 5 years ago when we were getting going. There are many, many MORE options for still makers (most are in the ADI directory) than there were just a few years ago as well. Bottom line for those figuring out how to set an operation up, If you're not prepared to engineer your own distillery, or don't have someone already involved in your operation that is going to be the main person to do so, I recommend you look into hiring a consultant (they're in the ADI directory). If you're simply wanting to set up a small operation without millions of dollars, go to a class or workshop (doesn't have to mine, we only have limited room anyway) to get your head on straight.

In my humble opinion, the information already contained in past posts with regards to stills is about as good as you'll get via this or any forum. The only way that you're going to come to a conclusion on what you need for your setup is to continue to look into the industry. Go visit other distilleries (call ahead and pre-schedule anything if you plan to do more than just go on a simple tour), go to workshops and classes, they'll be worth the money if not for just seeing their operation up close and personally. We specifically started our one-day course because of folks asking about working here for a day to learn the ropes. If I were to have taken a course like ours prior to setting things up, I probably would've saved tens of thousands of dollars, but there weren't near as many options for things like that 5 years ago when we were getting going. There are many, many MORE options for still makers (most are in the ADI directory) than there were just a few years ago as well. Bottom line for those figuring out how to set an operation up, If you're not prepared to engineer your own distillery, or don't have someone already involved in your operation that is going to be the main person to do so, I recommend you look into hiring a consultant (they're in the ADI directory). If you're simply wanting to set up a small operation without millions of dollars, go to a class or workshop (doesn't have to mine, we only have limited room anyway) to get your head on straight.

Call Jesse Lupo at Trident Welding (tridentwelding.com). We're looking at some upgrades and he's probably who we'll use. Jesse is a good, honest guy who knows a lot about not just the fabrication side, but the distilling side as well. He's also probably going to be a better bet price-wise compared to some of the bigger makers.

Our next scheduled "Camp Distillery" will be held on Monday, April 8th, 2013 at MB Roland Distillery in Pembroke, KY. Our last class consisted of 10 participants from 4 different states, all giving us very positive feedback on their experience. This is a highly-involved 1-day course, specifically geared towards those that can't get away for a multiple day class/workshop. The course begins at 6:15am and is complete by 5pm (CST). We cover the entire production process from mashing to distillation, regulatory matters, and some very specific business-related matters to include lessons we've learned on the business side, gift shop/tasting room considerations & procedures, marketing/product development, and planning considerations for setup. For those that are on a very fixed budget, we are probably the best example of how to get into this business without a huge amount of cash. We started with one full-time employee three years ago and have grown to 4 full-time + multiple part-timers and are on track to continue this growth. Also, being that we're centrally located in the country, we're within driving distance for many. For those that may be interested in visiting other craft distilleries, we're on the Kentucky Bourbon Trail Craft Tour and within driving distance of multiple tour-friendly facilities (http://www.kybourbon...rail_craft_tour for more info) in Kentucky and Tennessee. If you need lodging, there are multiple, newly-built hotels less than 5 miles from the distillery. If you want to fly in, Nashville, TN is an efficient 55-min drive via I-24. Cost per person is $350 before March 1st, $400 after, group discounts are available. Complete print-outs of the day's curriculum, additional hardcopy resources, morning refreshments (coffee and donuts), and lunch are all included. We do expect this class to be completely full based on current interest. Call us at 270-640-7744 or e-mail us at info@mbrdistillery.com for more information.

Whiskey is made from a mash of grain and only grain. Even if you were to use corn sugar or syrup, it's not technically starting out as a grain mash. Assuming you are using cane sugar, your product would be properly labeled (after formulation) as "spirits distilled from 66.7% cane sugar & 33.3% grain." Sometimes the regs are misunderstood by even the individuals approving labels and/or formulas, but (according to what you've told us about your product), that would be the proper identity of your product. If you then age the product in an oak container (barrel), it would be called... "spirits distilled from 66.7% cane sugar & 33.3% grain." When using two different fermentable ingredients from two different categories (in this case, cane sugar would fall under rum, and grain would fall under whisky), percentages ARE required by formulation. Again, no one can control any errors made by you, the producer, that is then also made by the approving authority (referring to the above label example). If you want to make a bona fide whiskey, and PROPERLY label it in a legal manner in compliance with the regs, it must be made from ONLY a mash of grain and aged in oak containers (barrels).

If you're wanting to do just the second half of the course, cost will be $200, lunch included. Also, during the "distillery planning instruction," we'll go over some lessons learned/planning considerations for a gift shop/tasting room that many will find very useful.

We're holding our first "Camp Distillery" here at MB Roland on JULY 30TH. Options are for a six-hour class (half-day), or the full-day (10 hour) version. Class starts at 6:15AM, we'll go through the entire process from mashing, fermentation, distilling, and bottling (hence the early start). This is an elevated version of the one I helped plan/give at the ADI Conference this year. Full-day course includes lunch, both include breakfast. More info on our website http://www.mbrdistillery.com/Camp_Distillery.html. Call 270-640-7744, 15-person maximum. Half-day course focus is production (mashing, distilling & bottling), $200/person Full-day course also includes planning/starting a distillery, proofing/regs, labeling & formulation, $300/person We're located 1.5 miles off I-24, one hour drive (all interstate) from Nashville, TN (for those flying), multiple NEWLY BUILT hotels within 3 miles, we'll give you recommendations if you ask. Documents/learning aids will be provided, there will be a wealth of information covered that we have learned over the years we've been doing this. We promise it will be well worth the time & cost. Camp Distillery Flyer.pdf

For this product, I'm selling a white dog, don't really care about the technical name, obviously I'm going with what formulation has told me (spirits distilled from grain). However, I'm mainly just curious if others have had different responses to this same formula-type in their experience with this matter.