HedgeBird

Well, it sounds like there is really no question about the option to be used. The sample above was TIG welded and the filler we used was just plain copper wire. My friend has a fairly large welder and did not seem to have any problems with these smaller pieces. He tried out a few amperages and ended up at 230. Thanks for all the tips, and when we get to doing the real seems (hopefully next weekend) ill make sure we get/keep it nice and hot. APete - I remember seeing pictures of your still right after you finished it. That thing is a beautiful beast of a machine! PeteB - Your still is super classy and all the copper is inspiring - I love the brick foundation as well. ViolentBlue - I don't know if you recall, but back In October I had emailed you with some questions. (had to change user names since). I have referenced that conversation a number of times now and I am not sure if I would have been confident enough to pull this off without your input and affirmation that my design was not totally ridiculous. Your already on the short list for a bottle from the first batch!

So for better or worse I have undertaken to build my own still. I thought about starting a thread a ways back but decided not to. As I am not a professional builder posting details about my plans on a forum of professional distillers and builders is, to be completely honest, somewhat intimidating. In the end my posting details and getting feedback will hopefully lead me to have a better, more functional and safer piece of equipment, even if I have to suffer some negative feedback or display my ignorance in certain areas. Hopefully some of you will find this thread interesting and it will either inspire you to build your own, or discourage you from what is honestly a daunting task. The design I came up with is modeled on the German builds, and the plan is to end up with a still that works, and looks, just as good as as any professionally built machine. Bootleg style stills are great, and I have no criticism for ones made from 50 gallons drums, but when another distiller visits my distillery I would rather them ask "is that a Vendome or Carl" rather than "where did you source your barrels from?" Time will tell if I am going to be able to pull that off, but hopefully its presents an idea of what I am going for. Basically built a still for under $15,000 that looks like $60,000. So the design is a 150 gallon, steam jacked still with a dephlegmator, four valve plates and big 6" sight glasses that stands 12' 6" tall overall. The base of the still is a 150 gallon commercial kitchen kettle that I purchased used back in October. Most of the still body is .093 copper plate that I have slip rolled into various pieces. The column and dephlegmator have an 11.25" inside diameter and are 4 feet and 2 feet long. The current issue I am working on is how to seem-up the pipe sections. I have gone back-and-forth and forth again on weather to but-weld the seem directly, or place a 1" strip of copper on the outside of the seem and rivet and soft solder that in place. Last week I did a test of wet-soldering (some people call it tinning I think), riveting and then heating and sealing a small disk. This technique worked really well and I could not have been more happy with how the rivet sealed, and how strong the connection is. Tonight a friend and I welded two scrap pieces of .093 plate. I am really happy with this test section and now I think I am leaning towards welding all the external seems. If anyone has input I am open to hearing it. Basic idea of what we are going for.. Sample seem options. Rivet and wet solder / welded.. dephlegmator - dry fit and waiting to be placed in a seemed-up pipe! More details and pictures to follow!

Its not totally clear, but from looking at pictures on their website it seems like there are no temperature/pressure gauges or pressure relief valves on this still.. As someone undertaking the construction of a still, I am curious what safety features/procedures everyone thinks would have helped prevent this incident. Pressure releife valve to prevent rupture. Presure test still above the reliefe valve settings to make sure seams/welds/connections hold? If building a direct fired still assume that at some point your still will leak/crack/overflow and some type of spill guard/tray/drain system should divert the wash/low wines away from the fire? Over-pressure switch that automatically kills/extinguishes heating fire a few degrees before the presure releife valve goes? Not charging still with anything above 40% ABV (particularly on a direct fired still)?

What is the diameter of that condenser? It looks great!

36x48 is the largest copper plate available. 36 inch wide copper plate / 3.14 = 11.46 diameter. I trimmed mine to 11.25 after slip-rolling into a tube to more exactly fit the plates and flanges that will go inside. I am creating 2 pieces of this "pipe" one that is 4 ft long for the 4 plate column, and a 2ft long section for the dephlegmator. (150 gallon steam jacketed, 4 plate column) To seam the pipe sections I plan to wet-solder and rivet a 1" wide plate down the outside of the seam. Hoping to do that this weekend. I did a test with wet-solder and rivetting earlier this week and was realy pleased with how it came out, so I am optimistic this technique will work. If anyone is interested in following my still build progress I can start a new thread and post pictures/share details. I don't want to hijack Pete's thread.

Turning some 6" copper pipe rings into sight-glass mounts.. https://vimeo.com/42501785 video is not exactly that exciting, so apologies in advance..

Rich, color me impressed. Did you do most of the work creating your system on your own? With a setup like this I assume you are controlling both heat input and cooling input? To reduce steam input do you have some type of variable valve or do you just let the PIDs intermittently cycle the valve open/shut? I think anything resembling true un-attended automation will have to wait for my next still build!

Nick, this sounds like a great option! Very simple and practical and for sure worth considering. Thanks for the heads up, and for providing the specific part number! -Hedge

I am in the process of building my still and was just curious how many people have automated, or semi-automated control panels for their stills. I have already started work on a panel for my mash tun that will use a PID unit to monitor temperature and control a steam valve, as well as have a switch for the pump and a timer, etc. Basically a simplified version of the Electric Brewery Control Panel: www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel With the mash tun its pretty simple; monitor temperature, control steam. The still on the other hand is not so straight forward. I am building a 150 gallon, steam powered, 4 plate pot still with a dephlegmator. The way I see it there are two data points I could potentially monitor, the collection vapor temperature or the dephlegmator cooling water output temperature rise. And also two inputs that could be controlled, the amount of steam (energy input) or the rate of dephlegmator cooling water flow. So potentially I could use a PID to monitor cooling water temperature rise or vapor temp, and adjust steam input. I don't really think this would get me much though.. Another option would be to monitor cooling water temperature rise and adjust its speed to maintain consistent reflux. With this arrangement adjusting the setting on the PID would control the amount of reflux. Steam input would be manually controlled and vapor temp would just be monitored with an alarm set at various collection points. This arrangement seems like it would be more practical. The easiest option would be to skip the 'control panel' and just build a 'monitoring panel' with displays for cooling water temp, vapor temp, and an alarm. So yeah. I'm curious if anyone else is using a PID or other type of controller, what their setup and experience are. Or if you just have feedback on if you think this would be helpful or is just overkill.. -Hedge

Is there a formular that can be used to determine the information on Table 6 (pounds per gallon) or Table 7 (temp correction) that could be used in a spread sheet to eliminate the need to reference the tables when making calculations?

Hewnspirits - Would you not be able to just seek a zoning variance for your specific usage and location rather than trying to get existing regulation amended? That seems to be the common approach in my Pennsyltucky municipality..

Jedd, I did not even think about checking at the local supply house.. I only need about a foot, so unless someone reading this needs 19' Im going to have to do it the hard way.. Pete, I just bought mine from the "other guys" last week. You are certainly the best deal out there.. It took me about 2 hours to get my one ring flared to fit a 6" tri-clover fitting last night. Now that I have my technique down I think I should be able to do the rest in about an hour each. Of course if I was related to the hulk I might not have woken up with all these blisters!

Any idea where to find 6" Type M or DWV copper pipe? I have a bunch of 6" flanges I need to fit into pipe, and flaring open Type L to fit is not exactly easy..

I have an older friend who have been drinking beer for much longer than 40 years. Its pretty much always Highlife and maybe once in a while Yuengling - you get the idea. When I brought over some micro-brew and tried to tell him it was better beer, well you know I lost that argument.. While I can't say my friend is wrong, the success of hundreds of micro-brewerys says hes not right either. Attractive, cool, yummy, tasty, delicious are subjective terms and whats good in fashion, food, music, achitecture, and whiskey change over time. I am sure the first cheap bastard to put whiskey in an old burnt pickle barrel, instead of buying a new one, had an uphill climb to convince people his whiskey was "better". And when the trend cought on and the traditionalists cried the sky is falling, I bet they argued against co-opting established terminology as well.

Thanks for all the feedback everyone. Ill make sure to work with a steam-experienced plumber to review my calculations and install the equipment. Rickdiculous, thanks for the feedback about staging. Its good to know that not everyone agrees with the idea of having just one boiler. Miller, thanks for the heads up on presure levels; it was definatley good to read a bit more on that. Jedd, thanks for the price range estimates! This type of info is very helpful and hard to come by. From doing more research I found its helpfull to differniate between "steam generators" and "steam boilers". "The advantages using a steam generator compared to conventional steam boilers: Easy to operate - normally no requirement for boiler authorization Rapid start-up and establishing full steam pressure Compact and easy to adapt in the existing machinery arrangement Price attractive - especially at low steam rates." Also for refrence: Nice Range of BTU boilers with prices listed: http://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewcategory.cfm?categoryID=104 Good Discusion on Boiler Sizing, PSI levels: http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/136840/Brewery-boiler-question-free-beer-for-best-answers After thinking things over more I am leaning towards going with a new, 350,000-400,000 BTU boiler. Something similar to: http://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewproduct.cfm?productID=453057967 - This is cheaper than even the "great" price on the larger used unit. - Initially I will only be heating 150 gallons not 300 anyways.. - I can probably time things so still and mash are not heating from scratch at the same time. - I can expand later with a second matching (staged or dedicated) steam unit if/when things get busy. Thanks again everyone!

Yes, it seems like a "lot of steam" to me as well! But everything I can find indicates it would not be too large.. Most of the sizing recomendations I could find for this type of stuff are from breweries, and hence the BBL measures in my original post.. Information I found on this forum.. I found a sales listing: 125 Gallon Christian Carl still being sold with a 400,000 BTU Gas Steam Boiler And a comment: I note a range of boiler sizes in terms of gallons of still capacity per boiler HP ranging from 8 gallons/HP to 20 gallons/HP That range would mean the 20HP boiler I am looking at would be good for between 160 and 400 gallons while I have 450 total potential gallons to heat up. I also found a sale listing for a "150,000btu natural gas steam boiler" that was purchased and never used. Perhaps it ended up being too small? Thanks for the heads up on zoning and insurance maxes on steam boilers; that is not something I considered and will need to look into. I am not familiar with a Fireman's Permit and Google is suprisingly unhelpful for that term!

Thanks Lenny! Located in Lancaster Pennsylvania - Hoping to set up shop in an old tobacco warehouse in the city.

Howdy, I found a used boiler on auction that I am considering making an offer on. Steam boilers are not exactly my forte and I would appreciate any insight or suggestions from folks that might be more familiar with steam appliances. First off, here is the equipment I am looking to power with steam: - 300 Gallon Mashtun - pipe-in-pipe heat exchanger with 60+GPM circulator pump (10BLL) - 150 Gallon Plated Pot Still - fully-jacketed (5BBL) possible later expansion - 300 Gallon Stripping Still, or smaller continous sripping still Working under the assumption that I need 50,000 BTU per 1BBL of boiling capacity I need about 750,000 BTU.. The used unit I found is a 20HP (I beleive thats about 700,000 BTU) Hurst natural gas boiler bought new in 2004 and used for 3 years. Thats a bit shy of my estimate, but I am also looking at pre-heating mash water via the still condensor, or an in-line water heater, so perhaps thats not a big deal.. Obviously thought I want to be able to run both the still and mush tun at the same time.. I guese my questions would be: I understand its suggested to get one boiler to run everything and not dedicated boilers for each piece of equipment. Would those folks currently using steam agree with this? Is this unit large enought the have reasonable boil times? Is it possible to oversize the boiler? Is anyone familiar with this brand (Hurst) Based on the description provided, how much would a reasonable offer on this unit be? What would a great deal be? Thanks, Andrew

Howdy Everyone! Getting started on a whiskey distillery in Pennsylvania! The plan at this point is to start with young Bourbon and Rye, and eventually move on to barrel aging spirits. The idea is to go for local grains and do most everything from scratch. (or at least that's the thought so far) At this point I have secured a location and received local zoning approval. I have costs and projections done for 5 years. I have done start up and equipment cost estimates and created a budget. I am not sure how realistic my costs and estimates are, but I have start up and year zero funds in the bank. I am in the process of building a 150 gallon, 4 plate still modeled after the German/European makers (Kothe, Carl, Holstein). Waiting on my LLC paperwork to come back and then looking to start my state process and purchase some equipment. I have been reading the forum for a while and wanted to thank all those folks who have already made a go of this business for sharing their knowledge and experiences! -Andrew

Are you using the same caps and wash depth for your larger 12" columns? It seems like you might not be able to go much deeper with these caps..

Caps look great. What depth of wash are you aiming for on each tray? Does depth on tray have an impact on operation?

A pictures worth a thousand words: http://bavarianbrewerytech.com/potstills/pages/gallery/stillsOnWheels.htm

Coming late to this thread, but my questions seems to fit here. Does the TTB allow you to operate a distillery in conjuncture with other businesses located within the same building? For example, I know I have seen distillery operations added to existing breweries. How separate do you need to keep operations, or do you just bond the entire production area? Could someone open a distillery and a bar within the same space? This of course assumes all proper state/local licenses etc.

Thanks for the elaboration and insight BeerPilgrim. Clearly I need to put some costs to my calculations and I imagine what you are saying should start to become more obvious. At least I know the production ratios I initially described are not that far off, and I can use those as a basis for scaling things up or down, or adjust for other liquors. Two follow up questions: Are there mandatory ABV levels for gin, or other legal criteria needing to be met to call something gin? What would you guess is a more realistic monthly production level/capacity for vodka if you did want to go the from scratch route? Sounds like you might say you basically have to become a producer/supplier of GNS to even make it worth the effort. Thanks again for taking the time to share your spare change; It tastes just fine lightly salted.

Fermenting potatoes/beats/sugar to make vodka - not sure I can really say why; I guess I like vodka? I used the term "low wines" perhaps that's not right.. I was referring to whatever you want to call the product of an initial stripping run to get the ABV up to 50% ish. BeerPilgrim, I really appreciate your response, I am just not sure I am following. You will have to excuse me if I am asking stupid questions. It sounds like your saying most small vodka shops would not bother to distil their own product, but would purchase 95% spirit (presumably from a larger enterprise) and then run that through their still? I am clearly missing something as I am not sure why someone would charge there still with something that is already at 95%. Why is scaling down vodka any different from scaling down other spirits if someone wants to start small? Is it primarily an issue of getting up to 95% and the time effort that requires? I know there are other shops producing vodka (fermenting from scratch), so other than my calculation of 80% and not not the required 95% for vodka what am I missing?