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The intent of this thread was about economics of the process (whether adding sugar to ferment with the grain mash was an acceptable and economically advantageous process), which I am glad Rick could get back to the main point here. Less said seems pretty counterproductive to the point of having threads to ask these questions? Learning from other more experienced folks was my impression of the purpose of these forums. I genuinely do not mean to offend anyone with my questions and while I don't think the concern is sincere, we are keeping great record of all that we are doing for the TTB. Thanks for everyone else’s post. I think I am good to go from here. SS

Bob - I am utilizing a close friend who has a licensed DSP in an industrial garage. This gives me the opportunity to test out. He has a smaller still and I am using my own fermentation buckets not to interfere with his production. He does not make Whisky. Mostly Vodka. Shoot, he may even have a business idea in allowing folks to use his facility and small scale equipment to let people fine tune their product. Hmmmm. Anyway, thanks for your concern. Cowdery - The oak chips is only to help speed up age for sampling during this discovery process. I wouldnt use chips in full production. As I mentioned before, the quantities are too small for aging in a barrel and I can get a good idea of flavor in a relatively quick time, as apposed to aging in oak barrels during discovery. I am certainly not alone in this, as an article about Stranahans describes how Jess Graber did the same thing using oak chips to fine tune his product before going into mass production. I think I have a much better idea of what is what after all your great responses. I need to run a test batch using only grains and see how the cost to yield turns out (most importantly how the flavor comes out). Thanks again for all the great responses. SS

Hello ADI World! I am located in Denver, Colorado and am in the very early stages of getting a business plan put together for a micro distillery using the clean, clear, great tasting Colorado mountain water and all natural and organic locally sourced grains. That's the goal at least. There are many, many questions I have regarding not just the best way to make the product itself (matter of personal and my close friends tasting oppinions for now), but also bottling, distribution, marketing, sourcing feedstock, and everything else that goes with running a succesful business. Thanks for having me in your "club" and I really look forward to hopefully contributing in some way to the industry. SS

Thanks Charles and Rick for your great responses. I am in the very beginning planning phase and suspect I will be asking such ridiculous questions for years. To really drive right to it, I guess this is an economical question. As someone who has owned two succesful businesses in the past (and two that have failed), I am really trying to determine very early on, where the best opportunity to keep operating/production costs low, while still providing a great tasting product to the consumer and still be able to compete with the lower shelve cost big boys who have quantities of scale in their favor. I can not buy malted grain in mass bulk and ferment in 5000 gallon containers to pass through a multi million dollar distillation configuration (semi or fully automated), but I can try to get creative and think outside the box to bring equal flavor by fermenting and doing the stripping run off the grain that is in the mash (which I can honestly say does bring a great grain flavor to the final product (not a rum)) and find opportunity to still make enough profit to keep the lights on. I would rather figure this out now, then learn the hard way after spending my life savings on a failed model. The oak is still used the same, only I am using wood chips for now, as I can not produce enough product to fill even a small barrel each run. But you have to start somewhere. Right? I have done a single malt run with sugar added to the mash for ferment in the past and so far, that is the flavor I like best, which is making me lean more towards that route long term. Either way, I hope not to insult any purist and I am in no way committed one direction or the other, just experimenting and asking questions, while trying to puch the numbers to see how this could potentially work out, if it can. Thanks again for your responses! SS

John in CO - I am also in CO and am in the very beginning stages of getting all my ducks in a row for TTB Distilling permit as well as local permits. Once I get this all approved, I do plan on a single malt as my main product focus. I have a decent sized still on order and hope to be in full "production" by the beginning of 2013. Obviously, I wont have anything aged for some years after that first start of distilling, but if you want to stay in touch, please send me a message on here via my profile. Thanks! SS

Great responses! Thank you all for your feedback. However, I am now more confused then I was before! Do I continue to use sugar for a higher (lower cost) yield that still has great grain flavor and is still technically "Other Whiskey" by TTB, or do I get a lower yield ABV with all grain and follow a more "purist" route that would follow a standard "Whisky" TTB approved label? Can anyone tell me, or is anyone aware of someone doing a rough cost estimate for using all grain mash for ferment on one hand, or adding sugar to a grain mash for getting the same amout of finished ABV in an identical sized mash tun on the other hand? If there is no real major cost difference, then the easy answer for me is to just use only a grain mash with no sugar added and work on converting as much of the grain starch to sugar as possible (even if enzymes are used) for a high ABV and still follow the "purist" whisky method. Thanks again in advance! SS

Hi Jedd, Thank you very much for your response! I have read the BAM and did see the statement you quoted above as well, however, I am not adding sugar after distillation. The sugar is only used to increase the ABV during the fermenting process. So the statement "Spirits distilled from a fermented mash of grain" is still met by my using grain, I am just adding sugar to the grain mash to increase the ABV of my wort. If you are saying and everyone agrees that adding sugar to the grain mash for fermentation for a better ABV yield before distillation violates the above statement from the BAM, then I will have to start experimenting with using ONLY grains to get sugar for the ferment (at a much lower ABV). Thank you again for your response. Any additional clarification on this is greatly appreciated. SS

Hello, I am brand spanking new to this forum and relatively new to the exciting world of making Whisky. I would like to perfect a small batch recipe that falls under the TTB guidelines of a “Whisky”. Right now I am creating a mash of 2lbs Rye, 2lbs Wheat and 2 lbs or 2 Row Barley Malt. All cracked from a small mill. After boiling the Rye and Wheat into a nice gelatinized soup, I bring my pot to about 155 degF by adding more water and then adding the Malted Barley to convert the Rye and Wheat starches to sugar and keep at this temp for about an hour while stirring. I then pour all this into a 7 gallon homebrew bucket, add 12lbs of sugar and fill with water. After cooling to 75degF, I pitch a special turbo yeast and get about 18% ABV wort. Works great. Good flavor after distilling, and I get a great amount of distilled product, do to my high ABV wort. This is where my question is. By adding the 12lbs of sugar to ferment, am I violating the rules of a TTB Whisky label? If I am violating that rule, is it possible to get as much sugar in such a small ferment container via Barley Malt that can give me a yield of 18% ABV without adding sugar? I have looked online at the TTB BAM and all it says is "fermented from grain", which I am technically doing, but I am also adding more sugar for a higer alcohol yield. Thank you in advance for your responses and time. Really looking forward to participating in this forum. SS