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Everything posted by dhdunbar

  1. Except it is kosher for a brewer to concentrate beer. Nevertheless, in essence, you are correct. You find the rules for beer concentrate in part 25, the brewery regulations. § 25.11 defines the term "concentrate," as used in that part, to mean "concentrate produced from beer by the removal of water under the provisions of subpart R of this part. The processes of concentration of beer and reconstitution of beer are considered authorized processes in the production of beer." The current subpart R begins at §25.261. Basically, it and the following sections provide that the conce
  2. Federally, if you purchase for resale at wholesaler, you need a wholesaler's basic permit. Even if you have a DSP permit, which a wholesaler does not need if it does not distill or process spirits, if you buy bottled product from someone else, you need the wholesale permit.
  3. Federally, you should have no problem qualifying a distillery on a farm if there is some distance between a residence and the building that will house the DSP. That answer is fact-dependent, but I've done it several times in the past. About the rest, I l know nothing. Dave
  4. I recommend calling the specialist who nixed the formula and asking the specialist to explain what TTB wants. What I said above was intended to give enough information that you know the rules and so can recognize reasoned positions from "shooting from the hip" B.S. If you get BS, your rights to appeal the denial are set out in part 13. I generally recommend not going that way unless it is an important product. You will have to expend time and energy going through the hoops of the appeal, but so will TTB.
  5. As Silk City says, I think the issues probably are the same. I see from the internet that the cocktail can contain simple syrup, so TTB may be saying that if you make your simple syrup with IPA, it is not simple syrup to them. The recent rulemaking on labeling and advertising contains some basic information on TTB policy on the labeling of cocktails under §5.35. The Beverage Alcohol Manual , a document I deplore because it greatly complicates matters, lists 30 or so recognized cocktails and provides a brief description of each, which states what TTB has determined, how I do not know, w
  6. I had to think about this for awhile, but I think TTB can site a reason for the conclusion they reach. However, when they tell you something like this, always ask them to tell you the section of law or regulation in which they are relying. It saves a lot of bafflement. The simple statement that something is not allowed points in no useful direction. So, TTB is probably objecting to the use of beer as an ingredient that is marketed with the designation "Manhattan," since I find, on the Interent, which can never mislead, "regardless of all the options, there is only one classic Manhatt
  7. When TTB insists on making "case by case decisions" based on "a number of factors," they create a situation in which there are a lot of balls in the air (multiple factors) at the same time, so when they say yes or no, one is left to guess what factor might be tweeted a bit to get a different outcome. For that reasson, I generally advise people to avoid alternation if at all possible. In the case of a brewery/DSP "collocation," that would mean establishing an area with separate entrances to both from the exterior, and partition to demarcate the two premises. TTB has accepted (remember
  8. I don't known. I have never done it and I know of no TTB rule that addresses the issue. I have received approval for a line around an area with a bottling line that alternates between brewery and DSP premises, but such areas are within a building that is locked when not in use. To comments like that I must add that past performance is no indicator of future results. I do not know if TTB would approve the line on the floor again. They might instead require some minimum barrier, like a portable knee wall. Lines on the floor seem to trigger a sort of visceral, not acceptable, initial r
  9. Piggybacking on Silk Cities post - brewers may be using mobile canning lines, so your local brewer (there is one of every corner, right) might be able to give a lead on who has one. Remember that, going by the book, the canning line must be on your bonded premises when you use it to fill containers :-). Maybe someone should start a business as a DSP that contract cans.
  10. I take that as another way of saying they have not reached a decision. I too have a request for information pending. I specifically asked if filtration alone is a processing activity under §5002(a)(5)(A) that establishes eligibility for the reduced rate. I put it in writing and have not yet received a reply. I anticipate that they will say they will tell me when they have decided what the rule will be. I put it in writing just to express concern that, based on what they decide, many of you may have to alter business plans or pricing arrangement.
  11. Has anyone heard any more about this issue? The business plans of those who buy whiskey in bulk and then bottle it would appear to hang in the balance as TTB figures out what processing activity other than bottling. If I were you guys I'd be arguing hard that filtration ought be be included in that mix.
  12. If you reasonably expect to pay less than $50K in excise taxes - that's something like 9600 cases at the reduced rate and that is a lot for a small distillery - you do not need a bond. You are correct, the regulations are full of references to bonds and bonded premises. When a person is not required to have a bond, any time the regulations state that a bond is required, the person is treated as if the person holds the bond. So, there is no affect on the application apart from not being required to furnish a bond. TTB explained this in Industry Circular 2016-2, which stated, "Bond-relat
  13. You can send me a personal message on this forum and I'll respond to it.
  14. My plan is to import contract distilled spirits from overseas into the US to an existing DSP. The importer must have a TTB importer's permit. It cannot take possession of the spirits. It must arrange to have the spirits shipped to a distilled spirits plant. Do not pay taxes on the bulk spirits at the time of importation. The spirits are shipped from customs' custody to the DSP in bond. (See part 28). Taxpayment has happened when a customs broker knew no better. It creates a disastrous situation, because a DSP may not receive taxpaid spirits onto DSP premises. "May not" is diff
  15. Legally it is discontinuous DSP premises. That is allowed. TTB has recently denied at least one application to estblish DSP premises in an area that has no access other than through the tasting room. Before anyone starts yelling, but there are lots of .... The specialist questioned it, someone hired me to comment, I made any argument you are likely to think if, the attorney for the company sent the response, the specialist sent it to Regulations and Rulings, and they said no. Will they always question that? Probably not, but if they do they have a considered precident for denying the app
  16. The general rule is that if there is a change in any information in the current, approved notice, you must amend the registration with 30 days of the change unless another time period is specified in part 19. You list major equipment, which includes tanks, stills and condensers. Both tanks and stills have other rules. In the case of major equipment other than stills, you are supposed to submit a letterhead notice to any changes to TTB. You must then incorporate the changes when you next amend. [§19.122]. A notice does not require prior approval [see also §19.1, definition of letterh
  17. Sooner rather than later. I'd argue that this is properly the subject of rulemaking, not of fiat. I read additional public guidance to mean a formal document like those found at https://www.ttb.gov/public-guidance. The last one of those was the one on "hand sanitizer." It was not exactly a fount of clarity. It failed to answer basic questions like, "What about surface sanitizers that are produced under the regulations of the EPA, not the FDA?" See https://www.cdc.gov/infectioncontrol/guidelines/disinfection/disinfection-methods/regulatory-framework.html. :-). I would not be concerned abo
  18. The separate address is one factor. But, since the address applies to the building, and not the surrounding grounds, which are deemed to be a part of the same parcel, whatever the addresses may be, TTB may require a fence. That was the case with the last one I helped get approved, in November or December of last year. We had a fence, but the specialist sent it to Regulations and Rulings Division and came back with a request asking the height of the fence, why it was different in different places, whether there were gates, why it didn't extend all around the DSP. What is the Seinfeld line,
  19. How long ago? The "funny" thing is that the fence, in case law, such as it is, serves as a demarcation between portion of the property that is within the curtilage of the residence and that which is not. Not all always is. When a fence is involved, the question the courts ask is whether the outbuilding is located within the boundaries of a fence that surrounds the residence, not whether the outbuilding is within a fence that surrounds it. But your point is well taken. TTB does decide on a case by case basis and the decision is based on "multiple factors," not just whether there
  20. My advice to all is to always get your local issues settled before your begin to consider federal issues. My experience is also that those who came to me for advice and assistance have not incurred any objections from state and local jurisdictions. And,. because we are talking about multi-use buildings, I am talking about urban areas. To be clear, I am not saying some have not been denied, , or even that a majority have not, etc. because I do not know. Maybe nine out of ten times the fire marshals turn thumbs down or the local development agency responds, "You gotta be kidding," but I've
  21. Apologies if you think I said you told anyone to violate. I certainly do not think you did and I certainly did not intend to say that. Let me expalin in a little more detail the reasons for my concern. I think that this is not an individual pursuit, which you know from the efforts you put into getting what you wanted. My point is that, since the law is not clear about what is included in processing - that is why I asked if you had evidence of intent - the provisions of regulation will determine what will be construed as processing and what will not, and that persons who have a horse i
  22. Are you sure of this? The legislating makes specific reference to processing operations, other than bottling, as set forth in §5002(a)(5). That section provides, in pertinent part: (5)Processor (A)In general [a term I hate] TheThe term “processor”, when used with respect to distilled spirits, means any person who manufactures, mixes, or otherwise processes distilled spirits, (B)Rectifier, bottler, etc., The term “processor” includes (but is not limited to) a rectifier, bottler, and denaturer. (6)Certain operations not treated as processing - In a
  23. I usually cite the sections of regulation that lead to my statements. I did so here. The rules are in §§ 19.75, 19.122, 19.181, 9.182, 19.592 and 19.593, as cited. You can find a link to the regulations on TTB's web site, but here it is for our convenience: https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr;sid=33fc0c0194b58b6fe95208945b5c637a;rgn=div5;view=text;node=27:;idno=27;cc=ecfr Now, what constitutes a tank is not defined. §19.75 says you don't have to report any portable bulk contains of under 101 gallons capacity unless they are tanks as defined in §19.182. But
  24. You can't begin operations at the new location until TTB approves the application for that location. If you do not want a disruption, you need to apply well in advance and ask TTB to grant you 60 days to make the move, during which time you want to conduct operations at both locations under the same permit and registration. You can also qualify the new location as a discontinuous premises to the first, then curtail the first premises after approval. Just plan ahead.
  25. A cat in dogs clothing, perhaps.
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