Copperstill

I would like to thank all of you for your input, and yes, I agree organicly is the way to go, so if I decide to procede with this I'll buy from someone who can garuntee me the grapes were grown organicly, and I'll demand for a list of anything that has been used to protect from any fungus. Thanks again, you have given me peace of mind.

You wont get a very good brandy from these low brix grapes because there won't be any character development by that time. Also if there has been elemental sulfur sprayed on them that will cause huge problems both in fermentation and distillation.

I would like to thank all of you for your input, and yes, I agree organicly is the way to go, so if I decide to procede with this I'll buy from someone who can garuntee me the grapes were grown organicly, and I'll demand for a list of anything that has been used to protect from any fungus. Thanks again, you have given me peace of mind.

You wont get a very good brandy from these low brix grapes because there won't be any character development by that time. Also if there has been elemental sulfur sprayed on them that will cause huge problems both in fermentation and distillation.

Think about running high proof and water instead of glycol. It won't freeze and if there is cross contamination you won't glycol in your spirit.

Mike,

Denvers responses are exactly what you should be concerned of when considering the high glycol temperatures that can come back to the chiller system from the still. With the high return temperatures, what could happen to your chiller is the refrigerant pressure will gradually increase beyond the reocmmended operationg ranges and create issues with compressor motor winding cooling and high refrigerant condensing pressures (both very bad). One thing that we offer to protect our chiller systems from this type of condition is to add a crank case pressure regulating valve, this valve is added to the refrigerant suction line and limits the pressure that the compresser will ever see.

If your wastewater is a major concern, I would urge you to consider using the cold liquor tank Denver suggested. There are manufacturers of stainless steel immersion coils and also strap on glycol coils - these can be used on non-jacketed tanks. You could use a valve to shut off the glycol supply to this tank when it's being used and then regulate the amount of glycol flow through the jacket manually to allow the tank to cool down during the evenings.

Shoot me an email if you want to discuss this further or if you'd like some suggestions on where to locate these jackets/coils.

damonr@prorefrigeration.com

i was wondering if when using active carbon for filtering product how much loss if any will be lost to not being able to get all the. Product out of the carbon? Thanks Seth

Seth,

That really depends on what type of system your using for filtering and how big a lot is being filtered. Often you can push most of the remaining spirit out of the filter using neutral gas or water if its plate and frame of cartridge, but what you push you don't want ending up in the final product. Recently I've been using cartridge filters (large ones) and when filtering you tend to lose about 5 gallons +/-. So when filtering if you can run big lots or daisy chain smaller lots together(segregating the overlaping spirit) since the cartridge is primed that might work for you.

Cheers,

BW

is that a screw style pump?

is that a screw style pump?

HDPE is likely to be more expensive than oak barrels...though it might last longer too.

Good luck,

Will

In the last distillery I worked at we had barrels that were still being used that were around 100 years old. Wood is good.

Its funny you ask about the flex tanks. I have kept my eye on these for quite some time now. To date they have no data on aging spirits in them although a while back one of their reps told me that Diagio(sp) had bought some tanks (implying that if Diagio bought them I should too). So two weeks ago I asked the rep at the unified wine symposium if they had heard back from the big “D”. He said “no and probably would never hear anything from them being their a big corp. and they keep their secrets”. Also the tanks aren’t HDPE they are a blend of low-density plastics that’s how they can oxidize what ever is in them. Having worked with HDPE and seen what spirit does to it after time I ‘m not sure I would use flex tanks myself. I also know some guys that have bought them to make wine and hated them said they caused all sorts of fermentation problems. Hope that helps. Pure and simple wood is best.

Charlie,

Might be worth an experiment, especially if funded by a company with lots of money to throw around.

...and you already understand that you would not be able to call the stuff whiskey, right? (HDPE is not oak - might work for brandy, rum, etc.) Wood added to vessels is flavoring, which must be disclosed on the label, and, HDPE is likely to be more expensive than oak barrels...though it might last longer too.

Good luck,

Will

If the last bit of its giving you trouble while its warm hit it with "0000" steel wool, and elbow grease.

BW

I ran cider lees a bit too thick and wound up scorching some yeast to the bottom of my still. (A 20 gal Colonel Wilson job.) Any tips for helping to loosen it up?

Cool....ass pockets

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450-622 1600 #235

marie-france.pelletier@unitedbottles.com

Cool about the acreage I love apple based spirits.

Large producers do make some good products but many of their products set a low bar. Sure they have excellent quality control to make sure their ingredients and all other processes meet their standards. But honestly saying that small producers can't be consistent in what they produce I just don't believe that. That said there is no reason not to promote small runs too.

I'm partnered with a 60 yer old, 15 acre, 1500 tree, 200 cultivar orchard. They let me graft and plant - so I've got about 3 acres of heirloom english, french and colonial american cultivars that are just for my business. Harrison is incredible. Parmar hasn't fruited for me yet, but I got it on the advise of Tom Burford - the East Coast's Old Man of Apples. He says that when his father would go walking with him up into the hollers of the Virginia Piedmont, when they saw a farmstead with Parmar growing, he'd point it out and note that they must be moonshiners, because that was the only reason you'd grow that particular apple.

And it may be off topic - but I don't know that quality is an advantage that small producers _actually_ have. You might not care for a given macro-spirit product, but they've got quality down. You know exactly what you're going to get, because they've got delivering it down with precision. A little producer is going to have a hard time getting that precise, repeatable delivery - for a number of reasons, but including simple scale of operation.

I think small producers can flip that coin though. Play up batch to batch, barrel to barrel differences, much as vintage, single vineyard wines might. A place where, I think, macro-spirits can't credibly share space with micros is in ties-to-place. We're local. They aren't. Period. Which is why I spent the extra penny to put my WI grown, WI fermented, WI distilled brandies into WI oak.

I don't dissagree with that. But quality is really the only edge we can have over the big guys, it sure isn't advertising budgets. I've heard of Harrison but not Parmar all very cool in my book. How big is your orchard?

Which is why I've got apples like 'Parmar' (a 19th Cen american distilling cultivar) and 'Harrison' in the ground. I'm only distilling the apple wine 'cause I had it handy. But I've been pleasantly surprised at the results.

There can be a lot of pressure to find a middle ground bewteen artistic purity and commercial pragmatism. (I think) We all have to deal with it at some point.

The quality of your final product is only as good as your base. If you want to make apple brandy make it out of apples. If you buy concentrate you have no control over its quality. There is a saying "Great wine is made in the vineyard." the same can be said about really any fruit based spirit. A friend of mine is a great wine maker, part of the reason he makes great wine is because because he is a great farmer.

Rusty, that was not the answer I got from the TTB.

And Tom is right. Whether you can, and whether it's a good idea are two different things. Alcohol level during fermentation affects aromatic profile, since a lot of aromatics are more soluble in alcohol than water. Keeping brix low would give one kind of profile. Running the alcohol up with sugar, or heads and tails (which is allowed in the regs) would give another. I won't claim one to be better - that's up to you and your customers. I happen to like my apple wine spirit. But adding sugar does more than just dilute apple character. For better or for worse. And it's likely to offend purists.

Before you go about adding sugar to your ferment please consider this. If x equals the total amount of apple character you can extract from the base ingredient(in this case your cider that you plan to distill), and you double the amount of final product you intend to yield (by raising the ABV of the base wine). What does that do to the amount of apple character per unit of final product?

I know the answer in one situation. Since I'm primarily a cider (as in 'hard') maker, I have a Bonded Winery as well as a DSP registration. I've gone around a couple time with the TTB on this.

The BW may make a chaptalized fruit wine within the reg limits. It may have residual sugar. The BW may send the wine to a DSP to be distilled - and it's brandy. No special designations needed.

Neither the BW, nor the DSP, may intentionally referment the residual sugar and then distill it.

That answer may not fit your situation - but it's as far as I've explored.

I can attest that Germain Robin does use rain water that they collect.

Alcohol reduces the solubility of minerals. Mineral rich (but perhaps really good tasting) water added to alcohol can become cloudy when the minerals come out of solution. This can leave a ring of precipitate on the bottom of the bottle. Mineral solubility is also reduced at lower temperatures, so a cold test is a good idea. Another good reason to condition your water is to remove stuff like chlorine, chloramines, fluoride compounds, etc. from your city water, as you may not want to pass everything on to the consumer.

Two cognac-style brandy producers here in the west claim that they capture rain water to use in their process. I tried that, but it got all stinky and funky....probably from the seagull "nutrient" that came down. Rather nasty, actually. Don't know what those guys do to make their catch water usable.

I have gone through multiple products trying to find what is best for me, and after handling thousands and thousands of gallons of spirits that is Badger Balm. I recommend the uncented helps minimize the stray odors in the distillery.

Hi All,

As distillers, we frequently have high proof spirits spilled on our hands, and i was just wondering if anyone was using anything special to counteract the dehydrating effect of alcohol on flesh.

I suspect distillers in colder regions of the states are afflicted more by this, so i thought i'd post to see if anyone wanted to share their remedies

Dave,

The large commercial distillers often have their vodka sit overnight between diluting and filtering/bottling, but this is usually just as a result of scheduling. Vodka does not usually need to be rested after dilution, but if you notice any offensive or "defect" aromas coming off your vodka after dilution, you should let it rest at least 12 hrs in hopes that the aromas will dissipate. On the occasion that diacetyl is carried over into the spirits at a detectable level, the distiller will either rest the spirits/vodka or may resort to agitating or aerating the spirits to reduce this highly volatile component before bottling.

-Steve Wright

What you don't like butter flavored vodka?

The answer depends on the type of product you are making which you did not mention.

If trying to make a clean single malt whiskey without phenol issues or the chance of bacterial influence that can arise from distilling off the grain you will want to "lauter" your wort. This is the separation of the liquid from the grain. In that case you would not want to use a hammer mill as you would not have the husk size required to filter the wort. All Scotch producers use this technique. This technique also maximizes the yield as up to 30% of the volume in both fermenters and stills can be taken up by the grain if a separation is not undertaken. However, since a bit less starch surface is accessible to be converted into fermentable sugars, the extract derived is less than if it was hammer milled.

Now, if you are not separating the liquid from the grain, a hammer mill would be great. More extract per pound of ingredients used. Additionally, there is a minor secondary conversion that takes place during on grain fermentations that gives a slightly better alcohol yield. But, there are flavor and maturation time consequences from distilling off the grain as I mentioned that may or may not be worthy of consideration.

Eric Watson

Master Distiller

Cayman Island Distilleries, LTD.

Where are you getting this information from?

I'm searching a business opportunity. One of my friend suggested about distillary business. How much can i earn from this annually? What is competition level? Is it logical to start minimum investment? send me your suggestions.

Brandon,

I apologize for the haters not everybody on this forum is like that. I mistype things from time to time myself. Most of the people on this forum really don't know what their are talking about when it comes to how to run a profitable distillery. There are few examples, so people are pretty much blazing their own trails. The next 5+/- years will show who really knows what they are doing. They do have one thing right, it takes a considerable amount of capital to get going. I recommend that if you think this might be the industry for you go out and get yourself a industry job. Every wine maker I have met who owns their own winery started at someone else's.

Good luck.

Just wondering what every one is using to clean and re-guvating their copper on the inside? coop

We back flush with our hot spent wine( acidic) then back flush with hot water then flush with hot water, then crawl in and clean with 000 steel wool.

works great

I'm building a map of all the Micro Distillers in Google Maps. I thought it would be useful as a reference for people in the industry as well as consumers. If any of you can send me you current information I'll add it to the public map.

Format Example:

Bardenay

Kevin Settles

610 Grove Street

Boise, ID 83702

208-426-0538

info@bardenay.com

bardenay.com

list your available spirits

and if you are open to the public

This is the beginning of the map share this with anyone you like.

http://tinyurl.com/6ehcqw

or

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&amp...;mid=1227025804

Please send information to microdistillersmap@gmail.com

Cheers,

CS

I think this should all be viewed like what happened in the record industry. Major labels vs. Independent labels. Indie labels are smaller and more maneuverable in a business sense, and were more sensitive to what the market wanted. They play in between the cracks of the large pigeon holes the Major labels used. They are sometimes owned partially or wholly by a larger label but are given autonomy to continue doing what they did to become successful. Is the term independent or indie or boutique distiller something we should consider using?

On the flip side I've tried many NGS based products slapped into a fancy bottle that tastes like @#$* from "micro-distillers". Someone like that calling them selves a "craft" or "artisan" distiller is like a man who doesn't know poop goes down hill calling himself a master/journeyman plumber.

For this reason I come to Mr. Coals defense for if we aren't careful we will destroy these terms in the public eye. Chuck Chowdery expressed this in another post too in different words.

Who am I?

Fair question.

A few of you know me. For the rest, there is plenty of information out there about me and I won't bother to repeat it here. It's easy to find. If you're interested, my web site is a good place to start.

But the short answer, for purposes of this discussion, is this: I'm your customer, potentially your best customer.

I am an American whiskey enthusiast and so are my readers. We prefer American whiskey to all other alcoholic beverages. We can't get enough of it and are always interested in something new and different, but we're not chumps. We don't like to be zoomed. We're not children and we don't need to be told that our whiskey was made by elves in a hollow tree.

And although we aren't, for the most part, distillers, we know that a pot still is that thing pictured at the top of this page, and not a Holstein or anything else with a rectification column on it. Therefore, pot still vodka is a joke.

So if you don't care what your customers think or want, or you don't care how American whiskey enthusiasts generally approach and consider American whiskey, then ignore or disdain me. Otherwise, let's take each other seriously and have a dialogue.

Was that piece meant to be provocative? Of course. As Bill Owens said when he asked me if he could republish it, "let's see if anybody is awake out there."

I see where your going with this Chuck and I do appreciate it. I personally don't care to much about what a spirit maker calls him/herself although I do find it a little pretentious to title your self its much like giving yourself your own nickname (ace,killer,). Its what you can do and make that is more important proof is in the product. I've met people that take on the title of Master Distiller and make crap, so what in 5 years they will be gone. People that can 1. make good product and run a business and 2. get positive reviews for their hard work will still be there. As for the consumer's view of this all most of them don't no squat about spirit anyway. They may know what they like but the don't really know why they like it or have the ability to put it into context of other products. That were you and others like you come in Review, Critique let the best rise to the top through their merits.