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Joe Pawelski

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    Colorado
  • Interests
    Distilling, Absinthe, Inventing, Hiking, Skiing

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  1. Jack Daniels makes their own charcoal from sugar maple trees. They cut it into 1.5" "stickers" and stack it in 4" tall cabin patterns which they burn. A bunch of older gentlemen stand around with garden hoses misting it to keep the oxygen low and charcoal quality high. I guess it takes years to become a pro based on the age of the guys I saw on the video. But if given an abundant source of good wood for charcoal its certainly possible to make comercial quantities. Certainly adds to the craft element.
  2. Sometimes people get a little carried away with their opinions on this forum. You are getting many negative responses because a lot of us probably went down the build your own still path when we got started with mixed results. For example, I've built about 13 stills since I got the distilling bug, and while each one is an improvement on the last, after using them for a few batches I always find more areas to improve and inevitably end up itching to build a new one. Needless to say I don't have a working still in operation as they are all in various stages of dis-assembly. That said, while I've done a fair amount of formulating and test runs on them, I don't run production on any of my home built stills. They are just a whole lot of fun to build. I do know folks who have successfully made pretty good home built production stills though. There are a couple ways to go if you want to build your own. I would check out homedistiller.org to get some ideas of what other folks have done. A modified glycol jacketed stainless kettle is a good place to start. Good ones at a decent price and range of sizes can usually be found via scrap dealers in most major cities. Using a kettle that was made to be jacketed and boil things in the first place is a good start in making sure the thing is safe. Its also an easy way to get something that already has a man hole and agitator built in. You can go either stainless or copper for the rest of the still depending on what you are looking to do with it. Its not hard to find talented stainless welders if you look around a bit- you can also teach yourself. Keep in mind though the right equipment is pretty expensive and making nice clean welds is somewhat of an art- generally something you get good at with lots of experience. I've seen a few folks, with the help of a local welding friend, make beautiful looking stills with off the shelf stainless tube. Copper is another story as its quite a bit harder to weld than stainless, and while its much easier to form, the techniques to do so are somewhat of a lost art in this day and age. The last still I built was formed out of copper sheet I purchased from a scrap yard. I believe it was roofing material. I attempted to weld it without much luck and ended up soldering (use silver, lead free!). I formed all the pieces with a ball peen hammer, sand bag, tree stump, anvil, and bars from a work out bench. Searching for copper working on youtube is a good way to get the basic knowledge required to make an attempt. I made my own rivets out of 1/4" copper nails, riveted components together so they would stay together and be small enough to fit in my grill, and used the grill to preheat the material in order to get a good clean solder joint on everything. Its tedious work, but doable. I spent many late nights hammering away in my shed, which- with headphones and the proper music, can be surprisingly relaxing and enjoyable. If I do it again I will probably pick up an English wheel and a pneumatic planishing machine. These devices are available from Harbor freight it turns out- they also have a number of other intriguing sheet metal working tools there you can go and look at- but its probably worth it to find a nice used non harbor freight machine if you can. I'd also buy a thicker gauge copper that I could either braze or weld. My opinion, You really want to figure out how much you want to produce this year, next, etc and how much time you have to figure out how to build a still and build a good one. Most of us could probably build a nice still with unlimited time but often with a viable distillery business time becomes more valuable than any cash savings from building your own. Also in my case I could have bought some pretty decent commercial stills with the money I spent improving and building my own over the years. I sure had a lot of fun doing it though!
  3. First a quick lesson is Heat transfer- When calculating heat up times engineers typically draw a diagram that looks like a couple resistors in series. Each resistor is a heat transfer rate. For a basic still there would be a transfer rate from steam (or HX fluid) to the boiler wall, transfer through the metal in the boiler wall (which for our case is negligible) and finally transfer from the boiler wall to the wash. Heat transfer rates vary based on the fluid, but also velocity/turbulence, and temperature delta. If you blow on your coffee it cools much faster than if you just leave it on the counter, it also cools much faster if you stick it outside on a cool day. Point is knowing these parameters one could design a gylcol or some other HX fluid system to heat as well, or better than a steam system (or at least save some money over a comparable steam system, as I will explain below, steam is the best HX medium- but there are some trade offs) For example, you are limited to much lower temperature delta with saturated steam (not pressurized). Yes the steam can hold more energy, but, you are limited by the amount of energy the boiler wall can transfer into your wash. You could have a HX fluid at a higher temperature than the steam transfer more heat since the rate between wall and wash would increase due to the greater temperature delta. This could also burn your wash. One thing for sure is you want turbulence in your HX fluid to transfer the most heat. You are going to want to look at a steam table http://www.efunda.com/materials/water/steamtable_sat.cfm and http://www.x-eng.com/XSteam_Excel.htm Blue star is correct- its pretty much impossible to beat plain old water for heating and cooling, water can hold and transfer more heat than any other heat transfer fluid. The other really cool property of water is the enormous amount of energy it can hold within a very narrow temperature range from just below boiling to boiling. We used to use boil water in a vacuum to cool super computers in my graduate lab since it did such a good job of pulling heat away while maintaining a very steady temperature. So, the advantages of steam should be pretty clear now- The disadvantage of course is pressure. You will have to do some reading, but I am confident you could make a HX fluid system work as well for less money than steam on smaller stills.
  4. Pete, There is a machine called a surefox it uses a phosphoric acid solution combined with a small current to passivate welds. We use it in our stainless shop. Its sort of like a brush so you can spot passivate with it. New ones run about $3,000 but I imagine you could find one on ebay or probably build something for cheap. Surefox 203 Passivation is pretty straight forward. Its just a fancy word for creating a uniform oxide layer on metals which protects the bare metal beneath. There are a number of commercial products out there like CIP 100, 200, by Steris, and various other listed in this post. They are all generally made up of some type of sodium hydroxide solution for the first wash and a phosphoric acid solution for the second wash.... inexpensive to make. Wiki has a good article about it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passivation. Be care full having bare copper touching bare stainless. In the presence of wash or moisture the stainless will rust over time if its connected to the raw copper in a way that electrons can flow. This is a redux reaction and I have had issues with it in the past - stainless packed copper column = rust. again wiki has a good article on it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrochemistry
  5. The name of the game with steam or jacket heating is to maximize surface area. A false bottom will yield minimal heating area and would be very slow. One solution is to wrap the outside of your still with copper tube, if its tight and you use some type of hx grease then wrap in insulation you should get pretty good heat transfer. You want to make sure you size your heating coil properly though, I can help you with that. For 3ph I would look on ebay and around for a commercial steam generator, just make sure you get one that uses less power than your elec service. If you are mechanically inclined you can make your own steam generator, just make sure keep safety in mind. For real precise control you can go with a p glycol bath and a heat controller. Direct heat is cheap and easy but not appropriate for all types of distillation, there is a good discussion about direct heat on this forum. Many folks start this way and end up upgrading shortly after, may as well do whats best the first time around in my opinion.
  6. I think Cheryl might be on to something regarding a requirement to include the name of the company that earns profits from the spirit being produced. There are complications of course, but, in the end it seems like the company that owns the brand should be listed on the label. I am not 100% on this but is seems to me Coke products like Vitamin water and minute maid all say coke somewhere albeit not always in the most obvious font. Regarding the comment about "us versus them", on certain issues- it is us versus them. Take Bacardi versus Diageo - especially in this PR rum situation - are they not against each other? Now that's not to say we shouldn't always try to handle things amicably and we certainly don't want to be making enemies, but it would be ignorant to assume Diageo is making this craft moonshine brand because they like us. The similarities between 99% of ADI members and Diageo, or Bacardi are isolated the separation of mixtures by distillation. (Read about them on Wiki) I'd also like to add that if the goal is to brand "craft/artisan spirits" based on favored taste over the mainstream spirits (as so many have pointed out in this discussion)it behooves us not to make sure all of us actually are producing excellent sprits. Yes, some of us will have to scramble to meet some of the guidelines that may come out of this, but hopefully none of you started a business without provisions for change!
  7. One reason Miller is now MillerCoors and Budweiser is owned by Inbev is loss of market share to "Craft Brewers". Diageo would be stupid not to see themselves in a similar position with the rise of Craft Distilling. For Diageo the only reason to be in business is to maximize and continually increase profits - backsliding because you lost some market share to some small guy is not okay. The largest carft breweries, Sam Adams, Sierra Nevada, and New Belgium are still tiny compared to the "big guys" and it probably seemed inconceivable that craft brews would ever be any competition 10-15 years ago - but when you combine all the craft breweries its clear there is competition. Big beer responded too late and even with Blue moon and bud wheat consumers have developed a taste for what they consider "Craft Brew" that typically does not include beer owned by any of the big guys. One major difference between the Craft Spirits and Craft Beer is choice. Back when Sam Adams was introducing its beers you could pretty much only get clear watered down Lagers - made the difference clear to consumer and branded "Craft Brewing" as a stepping point for all the other craft brews that came after. Point being, you really couldn't slap a fancy label on Coors lite and convince someone that its craft brewed. With spirits on the other hand you could slap a craft distilled sticker on a bottle of Evan Williams and far more people are liable to believe it. This is the intent of Diageo I guarantee it. Individually I agree most of you that the best thing each of us can do is focus on making quality spirits and operating our own business - as a whole though its imperative that we all work together to make sure "craft Spirit" is defined in a manor that prevents deceptive labeling.
  8. My point exactly- Just because a lawyer did it doesn't mean you will be any better off, you will almost certainly have less money though. FYI- the last mark I did took all of 30 minutes- after its published, assuming no-one objects, I will have to spend 5 more minutes uploading an image of the product with the trademark on it. Its really that easy.
  9. I should mention I waited for all my marks were through being published in the Gazette before moving forward with labels and branding. You take a risk if you start branding and printing labels before your mark is official- even if a lawyer did the search and applied for the mark for you.
  10. I have a couple Trademarks and Patents. I used an attorney on my first mark, legal zoom on one, and saved a boatload of money doing the last one myself. It depends how much time you have to do your research and check your work and how much confidence you have in your own work. Trademarks are super easy to do- if you have done one before. The USPTO has step by step online instructions and you certainly don't need to be a lawyer to follow them. You can also use Legal zoom or some service like that if you want a little more insurance that you are doing things properly. My experience is that most people tend to believe that some legal things are a lot more complicated than they really are. If you have a college degree- and certainly if you are capable of going through all the hurdles of starting your own distillery business- chances are you are smart enough and capable of doing your own Trademark. Also be aware, even if you pay a lawyer top dollar and he does your mark perfectly - there is still a chance someone could dispute it. If you do find yourself in a dispute that can't be settled out of court, and you are just getting started with your business, chances are you would be better off finding a new mark than wasting your start up capital on a legal battle you may not win. Patents and Trademarks are designed to help protect intellectual property, and they have come a long way since Samuel Morse, but they must be treated as a deterrent not a guarantee. For most of us the deterrent aspect is the only part that really matters. Point being, just having the mark registered is going to deter most from trying to copy it. Perhaps a lawyer could add a little more to the mark to make it easier to defend- but that assumes someone wants to copy it bad enough they weren't deterred by the fact you had a mark in the first place- and in that circumstance chances are they have a lot more money and a much better lawyer than you do anyway.
  11. The timing on this is ironic- I spent a few hours in the liquor store reading labels this past weekend while my car was being worked and was not pleased with what I found. 1)There are a number of so called "craft" or "artisan" distilled liquors that I would assume must (due to price and spirit type) begin with GNS yet make no mention of it on the label. 2)Several labels say in bold letters "MADE IN _(someplace local)___" and then on the back say produced and bottled by some major distiller someplace entirely different. Obviously those of us hand making spirits from our own quality mashes the traditional way are going to have a heck of a time competing with a company that starts with GNS and gets away with making the same label claims as the craft distiller. What is the solution? 1) Label law- there might be enough resources via the forum to dispute the recent cola submissions but with Diageo and Rangel behind it... its hard to say if any effort on our part would be much more than a tiny speed bump. (Just a guess though- please someone say there is a way- or that one of you is a high powered attorney with lots of friends on capital hill) 2) Marketing- Sam Adams might be a good case study. They had the wildly successful "better beer" campaign and won out against giants like Bud and Coors paving the way for the craft brew Gold rush. Perhaps we can join together via ADI or similar to start some sort of "Better Spirit" campaign. Quite simply it could be a standard sticker, medallion, or some sort of logo that would indicate a Genuine Craft spirit. In order to have it on your label your distillery would have to go through a basic certification process and be approved by an elected board or something of that nature. Has anyone on this forum been in a label dispute or aided in the determination of TTB labeling requirements?
  12. Try Ebay- "agitator" If you want to go the DIY route you can find shaft seals here http://www.mcmaster.com/#shaft-seals/=95a5eh look around online at some common designs, many use a small propeller- could also just be a wavy disk or paddle- anything that will mix things up. Lots of commercial agitators are air powered to avoid explosion hazards- alternately I bet a cheap air wrench from Harbor freight would do the trick. You could also probably find a washdown duty pump on ebay, remove the pump part, leave the seal, and just use some sort of coupling off mcmaster to connect to your paddle. Keep in mind also- the agitator will improve heat transfer so you get up to temp faster.
  13. No large us bottlers, PBC, coke, cott, refill bottles in the us period. I am pretty sure they do refils by the mfg in some other countries though like Mexico. I've heard that in the usa refilling beverage bottles is a safety concern, both contamination and fatigue in the glass, at least that's the carbonated beverage and juice excuse. Granted we used to have milk delivered in refilled glass bottles, so there are obviously exceptions. Certainly worth having clarified by the TTB, to be sure.
  14. Thanks Will, I have been talking to APete about this topic. Eventually I hope to simplify some equations to make it easy for people on this forum to size their steam coils.
  15. Hi Everyone My name is Joe Pawelski, I've never officially introduced myself and figured I ought to. I've been unofficially distilling a little over 10 years. Something that probably makes me unique in this forum is that I have a Masters in Thermal Fluids Engineering/ Heat Transfer. Arguably that makes me somewhat of an expert in HX related topics - that's not to say I won't say anything stupid from time to time though! (if I do, don't hesitate to call me out on it, I do appreciate constructive criticism) By day I am a product manager in the beverage conveyance industry, primarily high speed PET and cans, but have some experience with distilled beverage. I will do my best to share some of my experience and comment on heat transfer related posts and conveyance/bottling topics. Don't hesitate to personal message me if you have questions about any of these topics. Feel free to read my profile if you really want know all the other boring details about me.
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