SlickFloss

I am not gonna start chasing obscure codes and a lot of it is going to depend on where you are and if they blindly accept IBC/IFC or a hybridized version of them or something else completely but I think ultimately this is going to come down to 1) where you are in the country and 2) the individual spaces rating and overhead clearance. For instance I believe you could stack 6 high in the right place with the right racks (h3 room with XP fixtures) but I think you could probably do 5 or maybe even 6 high in the right room as well, for instance if you had enough clearance to be more than 5/6 feet from a non XP light fixture in an s1 or similar space. 

End of day the cheapest answer (if you don't get caught) is to do what you want but the best answer which is often cheapest down the line and actually legal is to get a variance to accommodate the storage that you want that best fits the reality of the limitations of the physical space you're in. Very few people on here have dotted their iOS and crossed their ts on ETOH storage compliance, and ultimately they're fine as long as no one ever comes knowing to check, with growth of industry in last few years we are bound to see some failures in facilities pretty soon that will lead to more scrutiny for compliance. I recommend to anyone who will listen, there's only one way to do things and thats the right way the first time.

Depending on your scale scope and goals you probably don't need an actual rickhouse. A Rickhouse is IP owned by the Busick family of KY on their method of constructing barrel storage warehouse that allow multiple floors of vertical storage in a safe manner that meets all parameters for standards of identity. They are functional and purposefully designed when it comes to stability, establishment of microclimates, ventilation, and process flow. Most people but barrels in a warehouse or a barn and they are fine. Some people get creative and store in all type of wild and fun ways, like Conex Boxes, in Caves, In hillsides, on floating barges. None of these are "rickhouses" but they're all really great functional ways to age spirits and subject them to terroir, so different way to skin same cat.

Actual Rickhouses are very expensive and they are also somewhat "fussy". They like to be full and don't like waiting for you to fill them so best to have most of the inventory ready to go in when yu build. Can always put ricks inside of a structure or racking of another type or anything, but then technically not a rickhouse,.

Buzick will take your cold call and will sub out to your contractors if thats the route you want to go, or they will build your whole thing out. We got our built out by them because it helped with the zoning issues we were having. Rickhouse in most cases would require a variance, most people don't build them so never bother to get variances for their alternative solutions. 

If you think an actual rickhouse is something for you feel free to shoot me a PM ill shoot you straight on it or just call them, we have a five story Rickhouse built by Buzick and we love it and currently its actually full. Lots of alternatives.

If anyone picks this up I will offer my services FREE OF CHARGE for help[ on install/planning/ any restoration or rejuvenation that may need to be done under the condition that I can run it one time once we have it commissioned! Good luck with sale, hopefully someone picks it up and hits me up!

Cheers,

Slick

The odds of you finding a vendome for sale used smaller than 500 gallons is minuscule at best unless you scour this site and every other avenue daily for the next 18 months. I have seen 3 Vendome pots come up for sale in the last 12 months only one of them was under 500 gallons.

Vendome didn't invent the still, they've just been phenomenal metal workers for ages. They produce a very specific honed and amazing set of machines but even the cheapest spray cans make art worth millions, you don't always need to paint with a horsehair brush. 

On 1/19/2024 at 10:50 AM, Christopher ONeal said:

Sorry I disappeared for a few days, we had a hard freeze here which throws the entire city into chaos. Thank you for the questions!

Our AP is serviced and calibrated quarterly. We had some issues in the summer with inconsistent readings but that seems to have been due to a faulty batch of batteries. Our local AP rep loaned us a benchtop unit for a few weeks to confirm our readings and once we got a new pack of batteries from a more trusted brand we had no discrepancies. I do a weekly cleaning according to manufacturer's instructions, and we do a daily deionized water calibration.

The AP is used to guage all of our spirits, but only the spirits themselves, and we have no flavored or sweetened products aside from our gin and cucumber vodka. For both of those, we use the AP only on the neutral spirit blend before adding botanicals and the final distillate, not on the maceration.

 

The are certified, and all but one are 5 years old. We have not tested hydrometers against each other, as we do not have overlap in the measurement range except in our parrot hydrometer, which has full range but little accuracy. We use it primarily to watch for spikes or sudden drops in proof.

We are able to hold 100% reflux with the steam dialed well down at the beginning of a run and with the steam fully open at the end. I have experimented with loading the plates and drawing off the heads, and usually end a run by loading the plates again to try and get the best out of the tails that I can. With the variable temperature of the input, we use the dephleg temperature guage to determine how open the flow is for the majority of the run, aiming for ~190F for the hearts, which for us gets a couple hours of ~140 proof spirits.

 

City water run through dechlorinating filters (we have checked with the city and confirmed that chlorine rather than chloramine is the agent used). We have also had our water independently analyzed, I can send anyone who likes a copy of that.

You are all good bro! I will answer bulleted below!

-Loud and clear on the AP keep that thing clean and calibrate it often! Most people don't! That is a precision lab instrument that makes its way onto the floor so maintenance and calibration are doubly important for it. Another tip is to make sure you are using it properly, a lot of people don't get accurate measures off them and its great to keep in mind that your rep will run you through how to use it anytime they're onsite, always great to just demo for them how you use the equipment before they try to teach you anything because they may miss later mistakes addressing earlier ones.

-Loud and clear on this one as well.... How do you gauge final spirits then? Hydrometer?

-Loud and clear and sounds good. May be a good idea to certify it against the AP for the proof ranges you're in. Also reiterating to all employees SOP of reading and recording and converting temps, as well as standardize y'alls gauging protocols (where you round, how many decimals into a calculator pre rounding, how the temp is actually taken etc.).

-Whoever is managing the system you're drawing from likely has to publish or make available too you tests on a relatively consistent basis (like quarterly, annually, monthly, etc) you can ask for that from them at any time. It is always a good decision to test against that which it looks like you've done already and thats good! Water is not consistent, seasons, operators, equipment, all get in the way of consistent water. You can't analyze it enough. Know your ingredients.

On 1/19/2024 at 10:58 AM, Christopher ONeal said:

Fancy a trip to New Orleans? We are definitely running a gen 1 still (he mentioned during his visits several improvements he made to subsequent iterations), but I'm sure we'd be happy to host you.

On 1/19/2024 at 10:58 AM, Christopher ONeal said:

Fancy a trip to New Orleans? We are definitely running a gen 1 still (he mentioned during his visits several improvements he made to subsequent iterations), but I'm sure we'd be happy to host you.

Hey fuck yeah! Don't mind if I do! PM'd

7 minutes ago, Kindred Spirits said:

I was under the impression this was a standard single pot still with a 6-plate column. I must have missed the two kettles part. 

I 100% agree on there not being a best way to run all equipment, however there seems to be a number of people in the industry who were taught one way to run a still and they never change or question it.

I have never run a two-kettle system either, but the way you described the process makes sense. Do they have check valves in line coming from the kettles? or is it just based on the vapor flowing from each kettle?

I also like the "strip and finish" method for most grain spirits and this definitely seems like they could save time by switching to that method, not using the delph for the strips and tweaking its use for the finish runs. Having the better ablility to compress and make cuts on a finishing run typically results in a higher quality finished product. Single pass whiskeys have their place in the industry but a lot of times they suffer from excessive smearing into tails if not run correctly and can be oily. 

 

I could be mistaken but in original quote he mentioned its a 2000 liter figgins reciprocating, which Ive looked into in the past but have never run. I have sent Rusty some white dog samples he is lightly active on here but not a lot of media out or anything about them. If I am correct it is one of these

https://www.stilldragon.org/discussion/1728/usa-nc-sale-2000l-electric-figgins-reciprocating-still

additional info 

https://www.stilldragon.org/discussion/673/the-figgins-reciprocator

Possibly was or still is procured by Minnetonka 

https://www.mtka-bec.com/skins/skin_1/images/distillingequip.pdf

I don't believe it actually has active steam control to reciprocate I imagine that just happens from natural fluctuations in steam pressure of the two vapor streams competing for flow capacity. You can see what im referring to in some of the pics there's a Lyne arm that connects both stills with a T in the middle that feeds the bottom of the shared column. I have mentioned multiple times to Rusty that I would fly anywhere in the country to run one of these and pay for the OH and labor of prep and clean up and source materials of the runs to try one out but I haven't gotten a response back to that. Would meet you there to do it brother we could make a vid!

Cheers,

Slick

On 1/15/2024 at 8:12 AM, Kindred Spirits said:

So just based on these responses, it doesn't sound to me like the still is getting run to the best of its ability. The main purpose of having a condenser at the top of the column is create more reflux and help you make tighter cuts.

The way you are currently running your equipment does not allow it to function as designed. You should have the condenser fully open to start, reach equilibrium, make your heads cut very slowly pulling off the concentrated heads, and then run out your hearts, once again slowly pulling them off to reduce smearing.  After that its up to you if you want to reach equilibrium again to try to extract some more of the higher or lighter tails, or just run out your tails for reuse, or just end the run.

Are you familiar with the design of the still they're running? It is other unique.... I haven't run one yet but I would really like to, essentially running one column off two kettles.... allegedly the kettles end up pulsing in a way, reciprocating vapor flow from one to the other into the base of the column. It makes sense, one kettle has vapor flow into base of column, eventually dropping subtly in steam pressure, kettle that want pushing through build up a little pressure and overtakes flowing into the column etc. etc. What I'm getting at here is not a very efficient still to run in terms of speed, and especially poor in terms of single pass off grain. IMO it would make so much more sense to run both of the kettles concurrently directly into the condenser as a stripping run with no reciprocating slow down and no fraction pulling or attempt to stack a very inconsistent stressed vapor stream, then run a finishing run. I think that the best way to run any still is variable based on inputs and product goals. For instance, the way you mentioned to run the still isn't how I would do it, especially given the mechanics of this specific system. I would make this assertion about any single pass run on grain so its nothing personal, but especially on this system. While I am playing devils advocate to a point here as I do understand the value of single passes in very limited instances, it would seem to me that running with no depgh for a stripping run would be a shorter run (no fractionation, no stacking of heads, no stacking of tails) requiring less steam (less time), less water (no variation of depgh flow) and less physical man hours on the overhead of the liquid produced. There are a bunch of reactions driven in the kettle that I believe point to better whiskey being made in shorter distillation runs. Especially on grain. Thats just me though.

Running like this would they perhaps able to run two strips (actually literally four kettles) in a single day? Overhead way down on that liquid. 

Obviously you can poke holes in this, more runs more OH costs come back more energy costs but I believe it is a more efficient faster way to process a bunch of cooks (production runs) and provides more consistency. If you stripped twice, charged with low wines, and then did a second finishing run, you can get more PGs through the run, you can operate with more precision on your cuts, and harvest larger fractions which can help when operators have problems managing smearing. As well, the end result of those two runs is much much much much more consistent for barrel maturation.

Millions of ways to skin a cat, and in terms of operating a single pass I don't disagree with your advice, but systemically I believe stripping and finishing is better for business, especially with the realities of this stills construction.

I have some questions about your gauging. When was try last time your AP was serviced and calibrated? Do you use your AP for multiple product lines (i.e. finished liquors/cordials, flavored or sweetened products, finished whiskeys [wine finishes, other spirit finishes) etc. Do you follow the manufacturers reccomended cleaning protocol for your AP

As for your hydrometers, are they certified and accurate? How old are they? Have you integrity tested them against each other?

Using city water in the depgh is a very very very inconsistent input. Especially if the SOP is run it wide open. Colder media in requires less flow than warmer media, same flow rate of a colder media runs a deeper neg thermal load than a warmer one. It is possible to run a depgh too hard but I don't think thats the case here (you would notice this as a problem more in trying to maintain 100% reflux, but thats almost what it looks like you're doing)...... with that last parenthetical in mind is your still able to hold 100% reflux at all? 

As well if you adjusted your positive energy flow (steam) and not your negative flow (protocol for depgh at fully open at 200 f) there's an operational change that has changed the thermal dynamics of your system. May not be the case but it could be something to look at.

Finally, how's the water you cook with?

Cheers,

Slick

This is 100% the best thread and conversation on this forum in the last 3 years. Thank you all. 

Probably easier to just work with a preexisting importer, hit up my buddy Gene in Iowa

On 11/10/2023 at 3:46 PM, PeteB said:

From what I have found, ethanol is not classified as an environmental hazard in Australia, but in reality that would depend on the size and location of the spill.

A flat concrete slab with coving(raised edges) that contains a spill would be a very dangerous situation. Have you ever seen a gas / petrol station area around the pumps like that? Imagine a fuel spill and your car is sitting in a pool of very flammable liquid. They all slope to the perimeter into a drain that goes to an explosion proof containment. Concreted barrel stores should be the same.

60% ABV ethanol that is soaking into gravel floor will, in most situations, be too cold to produce vapors any where near LEL (Lower Explosive Limit) whereas pooling on a concrete floor is more likely to produce LEL. 

If ethanol spills onto a gravel floor and catches fire it will burn very slowly. Ethanol fireplaces and fire pits in homes are examples of safely burning ethanol.

If they knew your idea was diffusion through earth (in the states pollution) they may reinterpret that code. Big enough set backs around buildings though and you can probably get anything done.

In the states our best practices have us addressing leakers and spills as they come up and codes are more to address catastrophic failure. So best practices a leaky barrel should be removed, repaired, and returned to resting. Any fluid pooled should be addressed at this time as well. A failing or failed rickhouse should have a perimeter that can be secured to mitigate excess property damage of surrounding as well as injury to responders. For instance our 7800 barrel 5 story rickhouse has concrete floor without drains, and it is situated in a containment "moat" or divot in the earth. In the states, H3 coding focuses on containment and ventilation, but a lot of the variances allowed to our building codes for ethanol storage are granted because the actual reality of true catastrophic failure is total inventory loss. The goal for responders is not to put the fire out its to contain it and let it burn out itself usually (time and strategic dilution).

Here they govern the bigs and littles differently here. Traditional H3 works really well for people under a certain threshold. Once you have 1000s of barrels of inventory the fire code needs variances (adoption of Kentucky Code) for safety's sake. Both of them have us using concrete.

What is your grains mill specs

On 12/22/2023 at 4:42 PM, Florida Cracker said:

Good on ya brother for offering to help. I'd be all over this like a duck on a junebug if I had the room.

 

FC

I just want to run a DYE its one of the only manufacturers I haven't run

You need to sell that many bottles to break even but one thing you will learn is a lot of people who come aren't going to purchase something for $30. It was really beneficial for us to develop merch that people WANTED to purchase, and making sure we had things for people to buy in the $10 and $20 price range too. 

One thing to realize is what you think is fun or cool often won't resonate widely. Creating merch that is "vanilla", fits and feels well, and you can sell for 15-20 at great margin will bankroll a lot of ferments. If you're clever funny and have great taste creative shirts can make you a lot of cash too, but you'd be surprised how much vanilla ice cream you will still sell even when you have your favorite cotton candy, chocolate balsamic, and strawberry mint milkshakes on the table. The same applies to your products and labels too to a point. 

While there of course will be people who won't buy anything over 10/20 bucks, there's also going to be a shit ton of people (if your doing a good job) who will buy ANYTHING to support your business. So merch, of various value, is very valuable.

Cocktails should drive a lot of your revenue. People on here probably won't be honest, but most facilities at what I imagine your size is going to be from your break even number and aforementioned production goals are doing 75-90% of their revenue through their tasting room. Make sure yours is on point, and you're ready to work weekends. Welcome to your money's burn barrel.

If anyone picks this unit up and needs help figuring out how to work it I'd come in and help set up and commission for free if you let me run it once, obviously Kris was mentioned above and as his hands were on this already I don't want to step on his toes as a consultant and start offering paid service here because he would be very qualified to get this equipment commissioned and optimized, but if for some reason you don't go that route holler at your boy Slick City. 

If you don't mind used Ill send you a box of whatever sized fittings you need cheaper than new. If you want to buy new Paul or TCW will have your best pricing.

Add deduct meters to your plan for certain areas of your flow, will save you money on sewer for water you're not putting down drain (stillage).

Plan now for a solution for stillage. You will not be allowed to put that down the drain long term, and short term they will likely found out very very very fast if you do it without asking and then you're liable. 

We are in WI. You need to make sure you don't end up building in a well head preservation area if you want to reserve the right for a well for process water. You will lose that battle on the backside in court, even if you were promised via contract on a dev agreement etc (trust me on that : ( ) In WI where we are at we are seeing a lot of Iron, Manganese, and Biofilm activity in the water. To be fair, we are pulling right from where two aquifers descend into each other and lett out a lot of volatiles. BUT even if you aren't, you will see a lot of run off related events in your data and then and flashes of other really fucked up shit every now and then. We've seen all types of fuel stabilizers, ag chemicals, minerals, etc sporadically flash in water tests that we've taken from our municipal system. We also had a few years of green water with zero cooperation from village for rectification until they got popped with a violation for "failure to operate as instructed" from DNR. We have a lot of very intense water filtration now for everything incoming resulting in multiple options for different uses. If you want to come and see our place sometime holler at me.

DM'd, I can probably help you get to a point where you can get clear liquid to come out of it when you want it to. I have one. 

Slab with containment or just slab is common here in states. You're essentially planning for run off which is interpreted as environmental contamination and not allowed here at all. 

Most people in the states are actually not in compliance with IBC/IFC and lack the permitting and variances needed to store how they do. Sheesh.

On 10/19/2023 at 6:47 AM, Georgeous said:

will this do vodka or just whiskey?

 

I don't own one and haven't run one so take my shit with a grain of salt but I would say reasonably for operations sake no. You would be able to tune that doubler to a point and maybe utilize a take off to get there legally a time or two but its not designed for neuties as it stands IMO.... Theoretical plates (depghs, "brakes", RAP, Siporax, etc) are not all equal. A theoretical removal of a plate to save space in a still will ALWAYS impact its operational capacity. More and deeper trays run faster. Denser intelligently placed inefficiencies scrub reflux better. etc. etc. etc. This is the issue with the early HF systems, can't speak to the more modern ones. Beyond the cleaning issues, the loss of plates slows down the feed rate because the vapor stream has to do more work on each tray, meaning it is taxed more thermally. 

It would be incredibly easy to insert a steel column in place of these plates given the TCs, or possibly just pack those plates, 

Absolutely bonkers that market pricing for MGPs famous mashbills are higher for a different distilleries marks from same vintage

Hope too see you seen buddy, lets get Johnny Walking ah?

5 hours ago, Stumpy's said:

That's the one! Aaron added some awesome equipment to the lot. Cooker, heat exchanger, and centri-sifter look awesome. Not going to lie....thought about buying it back but when I mentioned it to the war department (my wife 😜), I was met with a resounding "eff-you!" 🤣

You got any videos of that hyuuuuuuuge column rolling? How the bucks looking down there?

Oh wowwwwwwwwwwww

Whats the feed rate in GPM?

Whats the footprint for column, controls, and doubler?

What's your collection rate?

What's your distillation efficiency?

Fuck yeah. What a unit.