rtshfd

Thanks for the help. We're definitely not boiling over. I'm running as slow as I possibly can and still getting specks of herbs and color in the distillate. However, we were able to achieve some success by running slower without the agitator but my fear is that we will run into scorching at some point. Our system is a 300G artisan still run like a pot still for the absinthe runs. We were collecting at less than 5-6 G an hour which is excruciatingly slow for a 300G charge. I believe I'm learning that absinthe is a labor of patience.Whatever we have to do to make the best stuff!

Anyone here that makes absinthes or gins with in-kettle macerations: how do you contain the herbs and prevent them from flying down stream into your condenser causing all sorts of flavor and coloring problems? I'm using light botanicals like wormwood that's finely chopped and it's getting all up in my condenser. I've heard of using sacks, but the botanical bill on an absinthe is huge. Just pitch the bags in? Do you tie them off to prevent them from sitting on the steam jacket and scorching? I've always vapor infused so in kettle technique is new to me.

I've heard, read and seen different methods for coloring absinthe. The two I'm debating is heating a (small) portion of distillate with herbs till color leeches, or doing a cold maceration over a longer period of time then filtering. Does anyone have any input on the differences between the two approaches? My main concern is color retention. I'd understand and expect the feuille morte color degradation, I'm more talking about color fading over time on an intensity scale, not so much green vs dead leaf color.

Eureka! We finally passed the COLAs. I was able to elevate the review to a manager and had them talk with formulation about the requirements for the SoC. It appears COLA agents often times take the suggested SoC from the formula approval as gospel and require it to be exact when it doesn't have to be. I was able to modify the SoC to drop the artificially colored and replace it with a list of herbs we used. This is far more amicable on our end for obvious reasons.

I've found that escalating within the COLA team and going through the formulation team sometimes helps. The formulation agents seem to have a better idea on what is required for each spirit type and what the TTBs stance is on certain nuances, "barreled" gin being one of them. If you get a formulation agent's stamp of approval put in the "notes to agent" section of you cola app to contact the formulation department to clarify. I have an absinthe that is flavored with herbs after the distillation and they're trying to make me say artificially colored. We can all imagine what that will do to our marketing/brand perception.

I don't see why not. It's fundamentally a grain concentrate no? It's probably super expensive though.

We get upwards of a 16% yield from kettle volume if we recycle feints and run once through a 4 plate column. The yield progressively improves to a plateau as the feints recycling program remains consistent. The example at the end of my last post was a low end figure if just starting to recycle. With an 8% mash? Upwards of 15 pg per 100G kettle size? Just about. Super rough numbers. Heads at about 3% kettle size. that's highly dependant on product, distiller and system. I cut by taste only and recycle ad nauseum. Tails should be 6-10% maybe? Once again taste is what's matters and highly dependant on the setup. Way too many variables are involved to be definitive but a rough idea is what I'm going for here.

You should be able to get about 11% of your kettle volume per run in finished whiskey. So from a 100 G still you should yield about 11 proof gallons of hearts. This is all super rough numbers. You're saying you have a possible 6.5 gallons of 100% ethanol (6.5% abv of 100 G kettle). In proof gallons thats 13 proof gallons. This is your theoretical ceiling at 100% efficiency (at 6.5% abv). Impossible to achieve, but a good number to know. You're saying you are actually achieving 3.5 Gallons. Is this 100% ethanol? What proof? Is this proof gallons? Best case scenario, If you're considering this 100% ethanol, you're looking at 7 proof gallons of total alcohol yield of a possible 13. That's a problem. I agree. Your final gravity is way too high. You're probably having a conversion issue during the mashing process, or fermentation issue. Are you using exogenic enzymes? Are you using nutrient for your yeast? What type of yeast? Is it temperature controlled? Whats the pH at pitch? Whats the temp at pitch? There's a lot of variables but these questions should help guide your research. If you get that FG down to below 1.005 you're now talking about 8-8.5% abv. An abv between 8 and 10 is ideal for the separation of ethanol from water. Water is a greedy molecule and will try to grab onto any polarity if finds. If you have more ethanol in solution (higher abv) you have more alcohol to water molecules and the alcohol can vaporize easier. This increases yield per unit of abv. That is to say you get more hearts per 1% alcohol the higher you go. Don't start chucking more starch in the mash, however, because once you go over about 10% abv you're going to increase your fermentation time exponentially. Another note, refractometers read dissolved solids, but they're thrown off as the abv climbs. Alcohol refracts light differently than water. We are dry (below 1.005 sg) at around a 7-8 brix refractometer reading. That's about 1.025 gravity on the refractometer. If you convert for the alcohol (The calculator here is the top result in google) you can then calculate your FG, then your attenuation based off your SG. Basically you should yield around 11 proof gallons of hearts. Thats about an 85% yield of hearts from your theoretical TOTAL alcohol at 6.5% abv. That yield will change (increase) based on the efficiency of your reflux, and still. I would suspect in perfect conditions, at 8% abv, with feints recycling you're looking at 13-14 proof gallons yield for your setup on the low end.

I have two absinthes I'm trying to get approved through the COLA process with approved formulas. One formula has a suggested Statement of Composition that contains "artificially colored" at the end and I obviously want to avoid that if possible. I tried to change it to "colored with ..." where the "..." is a list of 4 herbs. That too was rejected. The frustration is that the other absinthe has "colored with ..." in it's SoC and is all good. Has anyone had success in amending a formula's suggested SoC? It appears the COLA agents expect the exact SoC as it says on the formula. I've seen labels with all sorts of marketing fluff and descriptive SoCs without "artificially colored" in it. Is it possible to convince the COLA people to a modified SoC as long as it's truthful and accurate?

Nutrient was why I made the switch when scaling. Live and learn. The batch in question is in second fill bourbon barrels and coming along nicely. Aging really does seem like magic at times.

That smacks of my experience with absinthe. I'm currently trying to muscle through an absinthe label approval and the agents are forcing me to say artificially colored because spirits are colorless so anything is artificial (even natural herbs). That, obviously, is a negative marketing angle especially because it's a DSS and has the SOC right in the middle of the front label. An aged gin category seems imminent...it can't be here fast enough.

Thank you for all the input. I have minimal experience working with honey. All the meads I've made have been less than desirable! Bluestar, when you say no champagne yeast, can you speak to that? Is the typical ester profile no good (the result is what I'm tasting?)? I did many test batches with the yeast I had on hand which was geared towards grain and it had a nice floral character. From those batches we changed from a clover/flower honey to a buckwheat honey (seeking a more earthy profile) and the aforementioned yeast change. Either way, round two will have much more DAP and possibly back to our whiskey yeast. The batch in question from the op is in barrels hopefully to temper over time. You never know.

That would be the intent and the formulation agent basically said that this was my only option without waiting months for lab work. The good news is that he was reviewing formulas that are a day old at that point so they seem to be making headway in regards to processing formulas. COLAs are another matter.

I just got off the phone with formulation at the TTB and they basically said "barrel rested" is a compromise but since gin as a class isn't aged (as of now) no age statements or references to "aging" are allowed. The big surprise was that if we have an existing approved gin product that is going into barrels, as long as I adhere to the above, it doesn't need further formulation. The agent said that "it wouldn't be a productive use of yours or ours time" to get a second formula approval. Basically it's still a gin that just so happened to be stored in a barrel for a period of time. The main takaways from my convo: * no age statements, "barrel aged" or references to other spirit classes (rested in whiskey barrels). * no formula needed if the gin itself is already approved.

How are people handling barrel aged gins nowadays? We are producing a gin from original distillation. It's a distilled gin by class. By barrel aging this and stating "barrel aged gin" are we changing that class? Would we be able to put an age statement on it? "aged for 3 months in whiskey barrels?" By simply barrel aging this gin does that now make it a distilled spirit specialty? Thanks in advance!

Interesting. This is for an absinthe and along with formulation comes lab sample submissions. As I'm not changing the approved thujone level, I'm trying to avoid having to submit a separate formula that would require another round of samples which means months of time. **edit**: It would appear I can submit a superseding formula which will not require a new sample as long as I can explain it's just the base changing and not the botanical load. Once approved a new COLA will need to be submitted for the new formula.

lol I tried. They didn't like "neutral spirits." They forced me to claim a commodity. Thanks for the input.

As with colas, is it an accepted practice to change the commodity of a neutral spirit (from whey neutral spirit to grain neutral spirit) on an already approved formula as it applies to COLA approval? I know I can change the statement on labels without approval, but is that the case for a DSS formula that is attached to that label? put in other words: if I have an approved COLA for a formula that utilizes whey neutral spirits, but i'd like to start using grain neutral spirits, must I submit a new formula stating that?

For the most part yes, the lees were left behind.

We're messing around with our first rum-like product (honey and molasses) and during late heads/early hearts I'm getting this pungent grassy/vinyl flavor that's quite strong. We're single distilling through 4 plates as close to a pot style run as possible (with as little reflux returning to the kettle as possible). We're using blackstrap molasses, local honey at a SG of 1.074ish. We used a champagne style yeast from lallemand (SR), and a dose of their nutrient (GN). I expected to be low in DAP but we fermented without supplementing. Has anyone had this grassy/vinyl off flavor before?

You don't feel a need to dilute to ~80 for safety? That's an enticing prospect as the per run efficiency would be higher (more proof gallons in the kettle). I'm trying to imagine the flavor impact of a higher proof run through a pot still on macerated flavors...

roughly 1 lb per proof gallon of total botanicals. Yes. that is to say for 50 proof gallons I have 50 lbs of total botanicals for predistillation and coloring.

I should have been clearer. The initial infusion will occur at 85%, and diluted to 40% for distillation.

Lets say I have 120G of 40% neutral in a kettle and I want to macerate/distill base for an absinthe. Considering that much spirit, what would be the expected volume/weight of G. wormwood, fennel and anise for, lets say, a generic recipe of .5/1/1 of all three botanicals respectively. I have a number in mind for each, and I know that number changes come with flavor implications/preferences based on the recipe, but the number I calculated seems rather large/expensive. I'm obviously being generic and I'm not asking for anyone to speak to their proprietary recipes. The next question would be assuming 90% yield on the proof gallons above, how much p. wormwood would you color with? How long?

I've seen many bottles that explicitly say "barrel aged" and an age statement of "aged for x months." The inconsistency of the review process is maddening. Admittedly all of us new producers are putting quite a strain on the agents doing the reviews, but in a case like this we are being genuine. The gin is literally barrel aged for x months. How is that trying to be misleading? grrrr