starcat Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 " Wired line to neutral for 3 phase for each heating element, the current draw is 11.8A . " Three phase power at 208V for heating elements does not involve " NEUTRAL CONDUCTORS." If you have Neutral landed on your elements this is wrong. If you have actual 3 phase elements you land the 3 line conductors. Most systems use single phase elements which require single phase 208 which is 2 line conductors from alternate phases. Your 3 phase power is distributed among your elemnts in a balanced fashion in this manner with contactors and so forth. If you have 1 208V phase and one neutral landed on 208V elements, you have 120V applied voltage. If this was wired up by an electrician, you need to find another one soon. The only place you might need neutral is if your control circuit is 120V and is not supplied by an on board transformer. Otherwise there is no need to bring neutral into the cabinet or land it anywhere. The EGC is a seperate matter and you do need that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernhighlander Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 1 hour ago, starcat said: " Wired line to neutral for 3 phase for each heating element, the current draw is 11.8A . " Three phase power at 208V for heating elements does not involve " NEUTRAL CONDUCTORS." If you have Neutral landed on your elements this is wrong. If you have actual 3 phase elements you land the 3 line conductors. Most systems use single phase elements which require single phase 208 which is 2 line conductors from alternate phases. Your 3 phase power is distributed among your elemnts in a balanced fashion in this manner with contactors and so forth. If you have 1 208V phase and one neutral landed on 208V elements, you have 120V applied voltage. If this was wired up by an electrician, you need to find another one soon. The only place you might need neutral is if your control circuit is 120V and is not supplied by an on board transformer. Otherwise there is no need to bring neutral into the cabinet or land it anywhere. The EGC is a seperate matter and you do need that. Starcat, You sound like an electrician who knows his trade well. Our systems use single phase elements. I decided to go that direction when I first started building stills so that if our customers need to replace elements they can get inexpensive ones from their local hardware store. As I'm sure you know, US made 3 phase immersion heaters can be really expensive. I'm not an electrician, but due to the fact that we build heating systems and heating system control panels in house, I try my best to maintain a good understanding of how they work. Our original PID panels where designed by an electrical engineer who I had on staff then. My electrical department head has improved the design in a few different ways since then. Our control panels and heating systems are built for C1D2 hazardous environments and will pass all electrical inspections anywhere in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starcat Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 SHL I hold you in the highest regard as an expert on this forum. I am here to contribute on Tech matters that I am well versed in only. My background is HVACR with Masters License in the State of Texas 1992. I have 30 years in and ran one of the shops for the Texas A&M system for about 7 years until I went to try a different sector. Before that I was a Heavy Commercial Service Tech in Dallas. I would agree single phase elements are the way to go. SCR control is nice when possible. Your product sounds first rate. Just for the record for the laypersons who do not have a lot of time in on electrical. The neutral conductor only comes into play in our world when dealing with 120v or 277V circuits. When working daily with and studying electrical systems, it is one of the most difficult conductors to properly understand. Especially with respect to it being a " grounded " conductor. I can recommend " Mike Holts " Electric Forum for anyone who is wanting to gain a greater degree of understanding. There are some sharp guys on that forum. We do not have a perfect setup here and were thrown into it with short information on a major fast track. I designed and built all the control panels for this Steam Fired Distillery under the gun. We are definitely still learning, but having had years of Brewery Experience to supplement with which crosses over fairly good on some fronts. ADI is a great resource. Sincerely 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedd Haas Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 Starcat, that looks like an interesting panel, can you show the front? What is it controlling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernhighlander Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 Starcat, Thanks, I really appreciate that. Nice work. Did you do the conduit as well? We've never done electric steam controls. Its something that I know almost nothing about. Sounds interesting for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard1 Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 Very interesting read. No I didn't realise the differance in US electrics from ours other than frequency and voltage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dehner Distillery Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 On 11/5/2019 at 1:22 PM, derek.duf said: Anyone have any recommendations on how to check/verify heating elements are working to their full potential? I know its kind of a loaded question but running out of ideas. We have 3x 7kw heating elements in a 100 gallon still. Our heat up times are ridiculously long. In our latest test batch, with putting about 15 gallons of water in the jacket of the pot, even after 4-5 hours the water in the jacket never got hotter than about 180ish. The elements are hooked up to a control panel. I have verified with the manufacturer that everything is hooked up correctly and is supplying enough power. My electricians have come back and verified the elements are wired correctly. Obviously I know the elements are heating, but is there some simple method to verify they are all working to their full potential and not having a loss of power somewhere along the way? Very simple. Remove the wires from each element and and Ohm them out. If it is burnt out it will be OL, if it is good it will show something. Check to make sure they are all about the same. Or you could amp clamp it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starcat Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 This is the Still Control Panel. Its pretty basic EMC with interlocks that drop out steam if they are broken. The still room runs with 100% outside makeup air that is close to balance with exhaust. Our system in this case is 100% glycol cooled without any intermediate water HX system. The Dephs are solenoid controlled currently, but I have the controls picked out to retrofit to full proportional if that choice was made in the future. The Rigid conduit runs were installed by an outside contractor. I am pretty limited to EMT basics on that front. This install was done under the gun and under the most extremes of pressure and without having sufficient intel going in. Under said circumstances, the build out turned out fairly decent with some lessons learned. It would have been good to have been on the forum 2 years before this job came around, but the reality of dealing with Mechanical at a fast growing production Brewery was first priority. Four years late in the game and after a very long run I got some assistance for day to day operation. There is a Mirror control panel behind that wall that this one syncs up with along with a total of 3 more sub control panels that are all integrated into process related functions. I designed and built all of them on the fly so to speak. Wishing you guys all the best. Star Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernhighlander Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 Nice job Starcat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starcat Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 SH, thanks sincerely. This forum is a great resource. I am just the Mechanic. The Still man is Jeff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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