GENIO Still > 96% ABV (192 Proof)

[GENIO]

Majority of our customers are located in Europe and they require a still that can make 96% ABV  (192 proof), which is a requirement to make vodka and gin, and in some cases to even have a Distillery.   We became obsessed with the challenge and created a G-Still 2nd generation.  Our stills now are able to achieve an average strength of distillate of 96.3% ABV (192.6 proof) with an AVERAGE production speed of 12.4L per hour. 

Below is a link to a YouTube video documenting the process. We apologize for the quality and length of the video, but we want to show the full process without any camera tricks.

https://youtu.be/hA5Nt8orKTs

We also improved our column head which is our primary condenser so that it consumes 60% less cooling water than before.  There are significant amount of improvements, and some even patent pending.

Availability and pricing coming soon.

[DrDistillation]

Nice video.

The video noted room temperature cooling water at 18 C but the distillate coming out of the still was registering 14.8 C???

I'm not sure I'd agree with your "average liters per hour figure above".  In the video I saw a total of 5.2 hours from the start to end of hearts collection.  Including fores, heads and hearts you collected 31 liters which is an average of 5.3 liters per hour with a 15% boiler charge.

If you recalculate including tails then you collected a total of 42 liters in 6 hours or an average of 7 liters per hour.

Looks like you used a total of 1274 liters of cooling water or 5x the charge amount or 30.3 x the product in cooling water.

A suggestion for the next video you do. Don't use a weird alcohol percent such as 15%, but instead use something more realistic like 8-10% or 27-30% which would be a typical ferment or low wines run that many people would use.

 

With the 15% boiler charge this produced about 65 Liters (after diluting down to 40% or 86 750 mL bottles.

With a 10% boiler charge I'd image this would produce 2/3 of those numbers or 43 Liters and 57 750 mL bottles.  That would translate to 4.7 cases per run at 10% charge.

I'd really love to see this done with a typical low wine run (foreshots discarded) which would increase the rates and run times as well as produce more spirits.

[GENIO]

Hello @DrDistillation.

 

Thank you for your observations. I am very glad that you became interested in the film and made comments.

1 - Water.

Yes you are right. We use closed-loop water. Over 10,000 liters of water stored. The temperature depends on the outside temperature. That way it could have been "colder water" for some time. So it was between 18 - 14 'C (64'F - 57'F).

In addition, the machine was set for an outlet water temperature of 50-60'C (122 - 140'F) - VERY LOW. Therefore, there was more water consumption. It should be realistically set to 65-75'C (149-167'F) - then the water consumption would be lower by more than 15-20% to the current one. We did not make a high limit, because we have poor circulation pumps in a closed system that do not generate a pressure of 3 bar (only 1 bar). That's why we use a lower cooling range.

 

2 - Average performance.

I'm sorry - but you are incorrect here.

I must note that Genio 250 erg2 (RECTIFICATION) - is a rectification column - here the process of rectification takes place a little differently than in typical distillation devices.

In a week there will be a movie with Genio 250 ghar2 (SIMPLE DISTILLATION) - there your counting method will be as correct and correct as possible.

Why?

First, some basic theory.

There is a difference between rectification and distillation which I will not get into it now. But the stages of these processes can be presented in the diagram as shown below:

 

 

We have additional stages in the rectification:

- STABILIZATION - 3 stages, a total of 1 hour of operation. During stabilization the column DOES NOT produce alcohol. Stabilization serves to "break" the connections of alcohol with unwanted compounds by means of temperature and pressure (pressure between theoretical plates in millibars) and depending on if the unwanted compounds are "light" - they accumulate at the top of the column, if they are "heavy" fall into the boiler. After stabilization, we make a "delicate" collection of light fractions collected at the top of the column. This stage is:

- HEADS COLLECTION. There are two stages in total, 15 minutes each. Reception should be made at this stage at a rate between 1.0 L. - 0.8 L. during 15 minutes.

Only after a total of five stages of STAB. 1 / HEADS 1 / STAB. 2 / HEADS 2 / STAB. 3 - which last for 1 hour and 30 minutes and after receiving between 1.6 L. - 2.0 L. of alcohol (containing unwanted compounds). The machine begins to produce essential hearts. The production of hearts will continue until the tank has only 3% alcohol.

In addition, between HEATING UP and FRIST STABILIZATION, the computer opens the valve for "bad alcohol" in the form of FORESHOT COLLECTION. These are the first vapors produced by the tank in which substances having LOWER BOILING TEMPERATURE THAN ETHYL ALCOHOL are found.

 

To sum up - in the REACTIFICATION process - the Heating Up, Stabilization, Heads Collection stage - WILL ALWAYS BE FIXED. No matter what alcohol content you pour into the tank - THESE STEPS WILL BE 2 hours 45 minutes. As a result, we will get: heated liquid, unwanted alcohols received in the amount of 1.6 - 2.0 liters and only at this point will be the production of ethyl alcohol + 96%. The duration of the production of this alcohol will depend on the amount of alcohol in the tank.

 

3 - Load with 15-16% alcohol.

In Europe, it is very popular to produce pure ethyl alcohol from sugar. (Water, yeast sugar). This serves to obtain pure, strongest ethyl alcohol, which is later used for the production of vodka, distilled gins, macerations, liqueurs, etc.

Sugar fermentations are between 12-18% alcohol. That was used here.

As for how the process would look like for different batch strengths in the tank. Without a movie, I can answer that with this diagram:

 

With kindest regards,

Cezary Trzcinski

 

 

[DrDistillation]

Actually I think I'm correct.  You stated "AVERAGE production speed of 12.4L per hour."  

You could say it produced hearts at 12.4 Liter after stabilizing but you can't say average as that has meaning which would be amount produced / time.

Example if a run takes 6 hours and you quote 12.4 L per hour then that would be 74.4 Liters produced other wise it's not an AVERAGE.  Your still produced a total of 42 liters over 6 hours which is an average of 7 liters per hour while peeks reached I think from memory 14.5 Liters after stabilization 2 running hearts.  But during all the stabilization of warm up times the still isn't producing anything.

1 hour of nothing produced and 1 hour of 14 Liter production would AVERAGE 7 Liters per hour.

[richard1]

You're splitting the infinitive.  No one expects production distillate during heat up nor stabilisation periods.

 

Really !!!!

[GENIO]

Welcome.

Thanks @ richard1.

This is a "pun" / "word game". (I'm sorry I don't know if I'm writing well).

Approx. I made a mistake. I should write: average yield during heart production. Or: During the production of ethyl alcohol + 96%.

In Europe, as Richard1 wrote, neither warm-up time nor stabilization are taken into account. But the fact is a fact - with a load of about 30%, we reach 4 gallons per hour, alcohol 96%.

 

C.

[DrDistillation]

I certainly wasn't knocking you guys or the system by any means.  You put together a very nice video with a lot of information in it that is straight forward and very easy to understand which I applaud!

I'd just loose the word average or say "production average" or similar but that's just me, it's not that important really when you are a through with the information as this was. I think the rate would actually be higher if expressed this way as well.

I mainly was wondering about the water temp and just wanted to suggest run maybe more typical runs using 10% ferment and 30% low wines as the charge.

Keep up the good work and quality videos like this!

[richard1]

For me the interesting part was starting from 16% and maintaining the 96% until tails.

 

@GENIO I had 2 observations.  1.  You've changed your packing from those crazy flimsy thin SPP wire diameters to something more substantial Helical Coil Packing, say Diam 0.9x Diam 10 x 10          and 2. you were running with quite high power at 12 KW.

[Hoochter]

@genio - well done for posting your equipment and its capability.

I have a few questions

1. what is the point you decide to cut to tails - is it output abv related or temperature or....?

2. I think i see the ABV output drop during run - is that what happens and why?

3. the Fores/Heads collection seems high ABV, i always thoughts the lower BP alcohols came over first but maybe i dont understand this point. My experience has been more collecting around 85%

4. the new cooling look impressive making cooling more efficient, no details on website yet. 

5. Do you get same performance from the 500L?

Regards.

[DrDistillation]

Agree Richard,

When I watched the video I thought too much heat input (energy) and too much coolant being used to offset it.  I think the proof is in the pudding during the runs. If things were balanced better, there would be NO need for re-stabilization during the hearts" runs as thing would be be balanced the whole run. Re-Destabilization is a sign of things to correct and need of balance because you are likely pulling too quickly.

I  got a friend/acquaintance who I worked with during our big computerization a decade ago, who I asked to take a look at the video and he said the same thing as above. Dude is  a master genius at this type of thing of automation and has worked on the biggest stills on the planet.

His basic analysis without having looked or worked on the still, but just looking at the video, was that the algorithms weren't balanced properly and the temps vs cooling are "fighting" each other and call for re balance/stabilization during the run to "right" things and allow the vapor to build back up in the column before take off. With  more proper balanced column you could take off the whole time at less volume but at a more standard ABV.

He also asked a frank question, what is the market for this type of still? As he stated the liters per hours in very low from a commercial standpoint. The electrical usage in the USA would be minimal 1/2 cost of commercial GNS alone without cost of still, fermenters, labor, space, etc. So when all costs are figured in the cost of producing GNS in house would be much more then just purchasing wholesale, freeing up labor to process it at will.

So why pay more to do in house then just purchase cleaner spirits wholesale by the by the tote?

Frankly this is the same problem the iStill has, which is no surprise as they work very similar, but cost more.

[Silk City Distillers]

Making popcorn, this is about to get good...

[Thatch]

3 hours ago, DrDistillation said:

So why pay more to do in house then just purchase cleaner spirits wholesale by the by the tote?

Since you asked, we do it because we feel good supporting Ohio family farms.   We want to craft our own and frankly GNS seems to me like cheating.   From an economic stand point making craft spirits makes no sense at all, there are a lot more profitable ways to make a living.  But, I get a real good feeling when people tour our place, taste our hooch and favor us by purchasing a bottle or two.  Sorry if I hijacked the thread.

[DrDistillation]

You can purchase GNS from a few of the larger wholesale suppliers and specify Ohio grains or pick from several other states.

I certainly understand farm distillers who want/need to process their own grains or local grains. I also get the fact you may want to not have pure "neutral" and want a certain profile to come through for your vodka, gin, aqua vitea, etc that might only be available by distilling yourself.  But I don't think that really was the question he was asking.

 

[Kannuk]

9 hours ago, DrDistillation said:

The electrical usage in the USA would be minimal 1/2 cost of commercial GNS alone

How much does a Liter of 96% alc./vol. Commercial NGS cost in the US? 

The average cost of electricity in the USA is $0.13 per kW, based on link below.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.electricchoice.com/electricity-prices-by-state/amp/

Electrical usage during hearts production is 12kW per hour, which equates to $1.56 per hour and that makes 12.4 Liters of 96.3% alc./vol.  This is approximately $0.13 per Liter of 96.3% alc./vol.  Taking heat-up time into consideration and stabilization time we can double this, which would be $0.26 per Liter of 96.3% alc./vol.

A Liter of 96.3% alc./vol. will make  3.21 bottles of 750mL of vodka or other spirits at 40% alc./vol. That works out to be approximately $0.08 per bottle of vodka or other spirits.  

What is the cost of Commercial NGS in the US? Is it $2 per Liter of 96% alc./vol.?

Please and thank you.

 

[Thatch]

2 hours ago, DrDistillation said:

But I don't think that really was the question he was asking.

I agree, which is why I apologized for hijacking the thread.

1 hour ago, Kannuk said:

The average cost of electricity in the USA is $0.13 per kW, based on link below.

We are very fortunate in that we pay 5.2 cents per kwh for electricity in our area.  

[DrDistillation]

Kannuk Hearts were finished at 5:20 in the video so 5.33 * 0.13 or $8.31 at average residential rates you gave.
$8.31 / 27 liters = about 31 cents per liter at 96.3% or 3.2 bottles (per proof liter) at 40% at 9.7 cents per bottle just in average residential electrical costs.  If you're on the coasts of USA your business rates are likely higher than this and you'd be looking more like 15 cents a bottle just in electric cost.

The still will cost you roughly $4 a day if amortized for 15 years so $4.00 /27 = 14.81 cents per liter or 4.6 cents per 40% bottle.

In order to make a mash of 14.7% you would need (off the top of my head) approximately 1100 pounds of corn or 22 50 lb bags.  If you pay $5 per bag you have $110 wrapped up in grain cost or another $1.27 per bottle. Of course if you pay more or use other more expensive grains your costs are higher yet. Corn would require enzymes for example and cost to heat the water...

You're now close to $1.50 per bottle without figuring labor or any other overhead or costs for other equipment needed for milling, fermenters, etc.  Without any additional costs but the still, electric and grain cost you are already at 2 to 3 times the wholesale GNS cost.

Of course if you are farm distiller your grain costs could be far lower but still have some cost associated with them.  The problem with "small" stills for many people is that you don't use enough grains to get the pricing the big distilleries get when they fill a silo by truck or train and you normally don't have the equipment for it so you purchase by the bag or similar smaller containers.  That is the root of the problem at it's heart and not any particular brand of still.  Your grain costs alone are likely higher than what you could have purchased GNS for!  Now talking about other types of spirits may be a different ball game.

[GENIO]

Good morning,

1 - @richard1

1. SPP in combination with pressure control between theoretical plates and heating power is the key to stable temperatures of the rectification column. It is the "control" of the combination of factors (column diameter, SPP physical properties, heating, pressure, temperature) that gives such results. Automation and software are the key here.

2 - @Hoochter:

1. tails. We can keep the column stable ("force it" to produce ethanol + 96%) until it contains a minimum of 3% alcohol in the tank. With lower values it is not possible to stabilize the theoretical shelves in columns so that the output is + 96% alcohol. Therefore, "tails" are produced, which are the material to be poured into the next charge to recover 100% alcohol,

2. Yes - there is a decrease in alcohol strength in the range of 96.0 - 96.9%. Here is a very simple relationship. If faster - less strength, if slower – higher strength. There is a simple relationship: If we want to receive alcohol with an average of up to 10 liters / 1 hour - the obtained power is from 96.5 to 96.9%. If we want to receive alcohol at a speed of 10 - 15 liters / 1 hour, the actual concentration will be between 96.0 - 96.5%.

3. Fores / Heads. It depends on the load used and the amount of Fores / Heads received. We used a "clean" charge (water, sugar, yeast). A very small amount of substances having a lower boiling point than ethyl alcohol. IN RECTIFICATION - where the basis is "reflux" - "feedback - backward" or the term "reflux" and so Fores / Heads in relation to Distillation - will have a very high alcohol concentration. This is standard.

4. Cooling. It was Genio's "Achilles heel" of the first generation. Again, we return to the differences between Rectification and distillation. We use non-pressure columns for rectification (working on top at atmospheric pressure - open system). Traditional distillation apparatus works in a closed system and in DISTILLATION we can use countercurrent coolers, which as a result allows to obtain 100% use of cooling water. In open systems - the first cooler does not work in countercurrent, it works as a CONDENSER. And here there were very large water losses (water leaving to 50'C - 122'F). Now thanks to a completely new redesigned cooling system, water leaving up to 70 - 90'C, 158'F - 194'F). This is only about 10% worse than the most efficient distillation coolers. Plus, the water flow is now automatically regulated by the computer on the basis of the following parameters: vapor temperature to cool down, inlet and outlet water temperature, and current flow. Website - information is just being prepared.

5. Capacity from the 500 L tank. Here we face a "dilemma". Mount the same column on a 500L tank and have IDENTICAL OPERATING PARAMETERS. The difference will be in the length of warming up, and during the production of hearts, the yield will be basically the same - no more than 10% difference. Only with 30% load, the whole process will result in 120 - 130 liters (32 - 35 US gal lqd) of alcohol + 96%, but it will last about 12 - 13 hours. The second direction - new column diameter, new power, new SPP etc. and greater efficiency: 20 - 25 liters per hour. We will go this way but it will be a few months.

3 - @DrDistillation.

1. Already because of the first sentence "When I watched the video I thought too much ..." and clearly "tendentious" questions, I am sorry but I will give up proving or translating some solutions. I see that whatever I write would be wrong. Of course - the equipment is not perfect, because there are no perfect devices, I have been building devices for 8 years, I am still learning, I am investing a lot of money in the development of the company, people, etc. Can one do better? - Yes, but as one of the few I write what I can do, I will always show what my device is doing and then discuss it. Returning to the subject, I get another question, following your reasoning - why do people make micro distilleries at all? Shops, bars, people should buy cheap alcohol produced in large factories for a fraction of the cost that micro-distilleries absorb. Why should an individual "construct" anything, build, produce by small companies or by individual people, when large factories can do it cheaper? ...... Only one question, is it "better"?

P.S. sorry for the language mistakes.

Cezary Trzciński

[DrDistillation]

Sorry, just when I see 15% boiler charge (sugar wash) and 96.x% take off it's basically as neutral or as flavorless as you'll get which isn't interesting in itself as it won't have much profile or any mouth feel at 40%. This you can almost always purchase cheaper.

Now if doing 8% to 10% boiler charges from grains like corn, wheat, rye, oats, potato, rice, etc you can get a nice mouth feel as well as a different profile then a sugar wash even at 96.x% that can make a unique vodka and something to build a brand around.  This would also fit a lot of farm and craft distillers who will want to use grains, not sugar washes.

This is why I suggested the 10% & 30% runs to show what your still will do for a large market of potential farm and/or craft buyers.

Besides just neutrals or vodkas it would be great to see how whiskey, rum and brandy are handled as well, as those are other potential small craft markets.

[Hoochter]

@genio many thanks for the detail in reply, very helpful

[richard1]

Bump …….. still waiting for video # 2.

 

Need to occupy oneself during this 21 day lockdown period on this side of the pond.