Proofing Whiskey

[Patio29Dadio]

23 hours ago, Hudson bay distillers said:

We were just talking about this ....here were taxed on absolute alcohol ..so if u proof down in the barrel that wont change the aboslute alcohol in barrel . Or are we wrong 

Only taxed on what you move out of the bonded area and it needs to be bottled.  You can change the proof in the barrel with no tax consequences.

[JonDistiller]

On 6/24/2020 at 12:22 PM, SCLabGuy said:

 

- Wait: For the next 60-90 mins the product will still be integrating (ethanol and water molecules getting together in their final interlocked configuration, spitting off heat in the process)

 

Does it really need 60-90 minutes to get an accurate read for the next measurement?   I haven't been giving mine quite that long, and I want to be sure that I'm following best practices.  My batches are more in the 30 g range 

[Patio29Dadio]

On 11/2/2020 at 5:41 AM, JonDistiller said:

Does it really need 60-90 minutes to get an accurate read for the next measurement?   I haven't been giving mine quite that long, and I want to be sure that I'm following best practices.  My batches are more in the 30 g range 

Depending on what you are doing.  If you are proofing for bottling then I recommend a rest of a few weeks or even longer if you have the time.  It is really quite amazing how a long rest after proofing will improve the spirit as long as there is some head space in the container.  Creeping up on a bottle proof helps ensure proofing accuracy, IMO.   

There is a thermochemical reaction with H20 and ethanol combining.  It takes a while to settle down.  This increase in temp is the reason that brandy makers will take months to proof for barrel entry, and then months for post aging pre-bottling.  They don't what the chemical reaction to delete subtle qualities.  Too fast proofing can also result in saponification... a soapy quality to the spirit.   Sometimes a proofing rest will help mitigate that problem.  

We are in the business of waiting to get the best stuff in the bottle.    

[Galapadoc]

On 8/16/2020 at 8:42 PM, captnKB said:

@adamOVDI prefer to reduce proof in the barrel as the change in proof in the barrel will extract flavors out of the barrel that will not come out at a higher proof. Overall reduction of proof slowly in the barrel yields a softer more rounded spirit. Brandy makers in europe have known this for many years but the approach has not really been given much atttention in america 

I'd never considered this. On this note, how much empty space (headspace?) do you leave in a barrel while aging your whiskey?

[CalwiseSpirits]

On 8/16/2020 at 6:42 PM, captnKB said:

@adamOVDI prefer to reduce proof in the barrel as the change in proof in the barrel will extract flavors out of the barrel that will not come out at a higher proof. Overall reduction of proof slowly in the barrel yields a softer more rounded spirit. Brandy makers in europe have known this for many years but the approach has not really been given much atttention in america 

I've been experimenting with this too. Not sure why this isn't common practice. 

[Galapadoc]

On 12/2/2020 at 3:18 PM, CalwiseSpirits said:

I've been experimenting with this too. Not sure why this isn't common practice. 

How much empty volume do you leave in a barrel while aging?

[RodneyAdrain]

On 6/18/2020 at 10:55 AM, bconley said:

You know, the guy at Smoke Wagon made an interesting comment the other day regarding proofed whiskey...he tried a sample of something he said had just been proofed, so the "chemical reaction was still happening" and it needed to cool down. What exactly is that reaction? We have been bottling right after final proof and now I'm wondering if we are doing it all wrong....

In the world of wine and blending etc. When adding one liquid to another we always allow the 2 liquids to set or as we call( the marriage).  Any mixture or 2 liquids coming together have to arrange themselves as to come to a equilibrium.  The taking in of heat or giving off of heat can also be noticed.  All I have read shows bringing to the desired proof through mixing with quality water then waiting a few weeks and checking again the proof.  Be patient in all your experiments.  Many of these situations can be worked out in advance doing small experiments in your lab area using small mixes.  $50 of lab ware can take you along way with learning to mix proportions. 

[Erik Owens]

On 6/26/2020 at 7:29 AM, adamOVD said:

I've been thinking of doing a low tech version of something similar by building a stand with a load cell and a vessel suspended top of it, so I could weigh out my proofing water into the vessel, and use gravity and a needle valve to slowly trickle water into a spirit vessel.

I've seen using a 500 ml water bottle with a small hole in the lid, and putting it in the bung. It drips slowly in over a couple of hours. The next day, repeat. 

[banhok]

what about ice ?

the same amount of water in the form of ice .

added to cold alcohol and left in a cool place to melt slowly

[Atarijedi]

On 6/18/2020 at 9:55 AM, bconley said:

You know, the guy at Smoke Wagon made an interesting comment the other day regarding proofed whiskey...he tried a sample of something he said had just been proofed, so the "chemical reaction was still happening" and it needed to cool down. What exactly is that reaction? We have been bottling right after final proof and now I'm wondering if we are doing it all wrong....

The main reaction is the destruction and formation of hydrogen bonds. Water molecules are hydrogen bonded to each other, when that bond breaks, energy is consumed to break the bond. Then the water and ethanol forms a hydrogen bond, and when that happens energy is released when the bond is created. There is more released energy than consumed energy, so the solution heats up.

More specifically about the bonding, hydrogen bonding is when a hydrogen molecule that is covalently bound to an electronegative atom (e.g. hydrogen bound to oxygen as in water) is attracted to another atom that is electronegative (another oxygen, or a fluorine, or a nitrogen, and some others).

In this specific instance, the hydrogen atoms from water, will create a bond to the oxygen atoms of the OH group on the ethanol molecule. The hydrogen from the OH group on the ethanol molecule will also make bonds with the oxygen atom of a water molecule. So you get this network of H-O bonds across the entire solution.

You'll get the greatest amount of heat when you add equal amounts of water and ethanol, as you'll get the highest number of bond breaks and bond creations, and you'll get the greatest increase in heat if you add large volumes/masses of water to ethanol in one go.

How, or why, this affects the qualities of the spirit, I can't say. Chemical reaction kinetics(speeds) will increase with an increase of heat energy. There will be more hydrolysis reactions with the greater presence of water. I have some ideas on how adding water might trigger saponification, but I don't think the speed at which you add it matters, I think that if saponification is going to happen, it is going to happen, regardless of the speed at which you add it.

[SlickFloss]

On 6/18/2020 at 10:55 AM, bconley said:

You know, the guy at Smoke Wagon made an interesting comment the other day regarding proofed whiskey...he tried a sample of something he said had just been proofed, so the "chemical reaction was still happening" and it needed to cool down. What exactly is that reaction? We have been bottling right after final proof and now I'm wondering if we are doing it all wrong....

Proofing causes an exothermic reaction that will produce heat. Letting something rest after proofing is highly recceomended. According to your avatar I've gathered you're at Cleveland. Is that the same Cleveland that has the accelerated aged products? If so, weren't y'all clients of Nancy? She should have instructed you pre her method on final proofing if you were.

[Alex_Sor]

On 8/11/2020 at 4:55 AM, captnKB said:

for any barrel aged spirits I am a huge advocate of gradual proof reduction. I try not to reduce proof more than 1 degree per day. 

The application of elevage to barrel aged spirits makes a big difference in the profile and flavor of the spirits and is worth the extra time and work

In another topic on this forum, I spoke about "storage in barrels". I believe that in the 21st century it is necessary to apply newer technologies than the old ones. Shooting alcohol through the walls of the barrels for evaporation is a waste of money and resources.

 

 

[daveflintstone]

15 minutes ago, Alex_Sor said:

I believe that in the 21st century it is necessary to apply newer technologies than the old ones. Shooting alcohol through the walls of the barrels for evaporation is a waste of money and resources.

 

 

Not necessary, but certainly a good idea.  I've never believed barrels to be the best way, just the easiest.  I'm a lazy guy, but leaving liquor in a wooden barrel for 10, 20, 30+ years seems the ultimate in sloth. 

[bconley]

On 7/1/2021 at 1:20 PM, SlickFloss said:

Proofing causes an exothermic reaction that will produce heat. Letting something rest after proofing is highly recceomended. According to your avatar I've gathered you're at Cleveland. Is that the same Cleveland that has the accelerated aged products? If so, weren't y'all clients of Nancy? She should have instructed you pre her method on final proofing if you were.

Yes, she came in and did some work, but that was before my time and so much has changed since then. I have a feeling she only helped with an initial blend for the first product release, because our filter set up was...extreme...when I started. Other than the owner and our sales manager (who are both completely hands off of the production area), I am the longest lasting employee and can't make heads or tails of the decisions made when CW first started.