flavored

[SteelB]

Not exactly a whisky topic per say . but i am working on a cherry flavored whisky. Im having a hard time getting a good cherry flavor. i can get a decent cherry flavor,

but then i get kind of a cough syrup cherry finish. So im not sure if thats just a natural occurance with the combination of cherry and aged corn whisky. the other flavor i  have been playing with is rootbeer flavored whisky. i seem to get a " fake" finish. Does anyone do a cherry or rootbeer flavored whisky? just curious as the direction you went 

on trying to achive  a nice finish without that cough syrup or coolaid finish. i did find one company that supplied me with a great flavoring except, the synthetic vanillans ended up being to high were i got the great flavor.

[Beerideas]

Are you looking for real cherry or man made?

[SteelB]

I would prefer a natural flavor

[Beerideas]

My experience with cherry is that you need a significant portion (if not completely) of sour cherries, not sweet.  Often the medicinal/cough syrup components are either artificial or a sweet variety of cherry.  To maximize  flavour and and aroma a blend of sour and sweet is often a safe bet.

 

[Foreshot]

Try using wild cherry bark instead of the fruit. Available at Herbco and most other botanical suppliers.

http://adiforums.com/topic/11531-botanical-and-herb-suppliers/

[Alex_Sor]

On 9/22/2020 at 4:23 AM, SteelB said:

I would prefer a natural flavor

You need to consider applying vacuum distillation.
You can use something like a "gin basket" in the path of alcohol vapor, but this path will result in "boiled cherries" instead of a pleasant smell because the temperature of the vapor will be high.

I have a scientific article from Italy where the guys made an excellent grape drink (grappa) using vacuum distillation. The drink retained the aromas of grapes and received a strength of 35-55% of alcohol.

I myself deal with vacuum distillation issues. Vaccum distillation preserves the subtle aromas of hop grain (if necessary) and grapes.

 

[SteelB]

Thanks guys some things to consider.

[SteelB]

On 9/23/2020 at 1:51 AM, Alex_Sor said:

You need to consider applying vacuum distillation.
You can use something like a "gin basket" in the path of alcohol vapor, but this path will result in "boiled cherries" instead of a pleasant smell because the temperature of the vapor will be high.

I have a scientific article from Italy where the guys made an excellent grape drink (grappa) using vacuum distillation. The drink retained the aromas of grapes and received a strength of 35-55% of alcohol.

I myself deal with vacuum distillation issues. Vaccum distillation preserves the subtle aromas of hop grain (if necessary) and grapes.

 

i wish i knew more about vaccum distilation, I am familiar with what your talking about i have never done it.

[Alex_Sor]

35 minutes ago, SteelB said:

i wish i knew more about vaccum distilation, I am familiar with what your talking about i have never done it.

Italian pamphlet-article on the vacuum distillation of grappa in comparison with taditsionny distillation.
year 2009.

Sorry,  it  is in Italian, I tried to translate their conclusions, and the   schemes   themselves   inside  the  document  are  in  principle
understandable to any Engineer

My translate:
...summary :

Describes  an  innovative  distiller  operating in vacuum and a column
without  plates,  and  the  profile  of volatile compounds of products
obtained in different phases of the distillation process under various
vacuum  conditions,  both during the second distillation of grappa and
the   direct  production  of  various  types  of  brands  compared  to
traditional  grappa  from  bain plants -marie acting in Italy. Results
define  products  that  are  significantly  improved  or  have special
features:

strong  lowering  of  head  impurities,  such  as acetaldehyde and its
acetal  and ethyl acetate; b) a reasonable reduction in the content of
esters  (acetates of various alcohols and ethyl esters of fatty acids)
belonging  to  the  classes of low, medium and high boiling, thus, the
configuration  of  various  and  attenuated  fruit  notes; c) possible
limited  reduction  of  methanol  and  maintaining a pattern of higher
alcohols  and  other alcohols, also on C6; d) maintaining a good level
of  monoterpenes  with possible profile changes and the implementation
of  someone  very  typical (see Amarone). It should be emphasized that
many  of  these  important  compositional  changes  cannot be obtained
during  normal  operations  or  process  adaptations  to discontinuous
systems, in particular, in bain-marie.

System description

The  plant described below and shown in figa and 1b, is a prototype of
an innovative distillation system compared to traditional ones. It was
the subject of extensive experimentation, begun with preliminary tests
in  May  2003,  and  continued  with  others,  conducted mainly at the
distillery  of the San Michele all'Adige Agricultural Institute. Being
able  to  work  also as a vacuum evaporator, the plant can be used for
distillation  and  concentration of substances of any type and nature,
with   particular   emphasis   on   the   food,   cosmetic,  chemical,
pharmaceutical and purification sectors.
..................

[Alex_Sor]

Equipment   requirement:   1)  withstand  negative  pressure,  without
“collapsing”.  2) it is necessary to resolve the issue with the output
of  ready-made  moonshine  - there are two options - either the output
tank  is  also  under  vacuum,  or  the  moonshine is pumped through a
membrane pump, and then it is simply poured into a regular container.

in  my  experiments, I simply connected a hose with thick walls to the
outlet  of the column, and pumped air out of the equipment through it,
and  in  the process, I pumped the moonshine with my pumps, pumped the
pumps and pumped it into the bottle.

I  used  Chinese-made diaphragm pumps made from plastic, which is food
grade. Plastic is odorless and does not affect the taste.

If  you  want  to  conduct  your experience with a vacuum, you need to
decide how to connect the hoses to the outlet and to the pump.

your   first   experience   "manually",   according   to  my
instructions.  After the experience, you yourself will decide what you
need and what not. Good?

...  You  have  understood correctly that it will be good for Jin and
Whiskey.
In  2012,  the world became acquainted with gin Oxley, obtained by the
“cold method”, as it was called, although it would be more accurate to
say, vacuum distillation. The British brand Oxley pleased connoisseurs
of  refined alcoholic beverages with a new classic dry gin based on 14
herbal  ingredients,  including  juniper,  citrus and meadowsweet, the
combination  of  which  creates  a fresh, bright and rich taste of the
drink.

The  gin  manufacturing process is based on a unique cold distillation
technology:  the high temperature used in the traditional distillation
process  can  have  a negative effect on the natural taste of alcohol,
causing  the  loss of most of the delicate flavors. Oxley, the world's
first  gin based on cold distillation, prevents the occurrence of such
a  problem completely. Oxley produces only 240 bottles of original gin
per day.

...

 

 

[Alex_Sor]

I  describe  (below) what simple equipment you need to buy in order to conduct tests and start moving into the topic of vacuum distillation.

You need to provide:

1)  tightness.  Not  all devices are equally gemetichny for excess and negative  pressure.  Tanks  that  withstand + 100kPa (+ 1 atm) may not
withstand a vacuum of -50kPa. My first device, has a wall thickness of 1.5mm  stainless steel and a volume of 20 liters, the bottom and the top
cover  are  flat,  because of this, under vacuum, I got the bottom and the cover 5mm inside the tank. The walls (cylinder) stood.

2) strength. Chinese "stainless steel" of small thickness can collapse inside.  At  -50 kPa vacuum for every 1 cm2 will press 0.5 kilogram of
pressure.  For  example,  a pressure of about 300 kilograms presses on the  lid of my pressure cooker, with a total of -50 kPa. It is 28cm in
diameter!  I  ask  to  check  your  tanks - especially large size. And especially  "square"  - round section tanks hold vacuum better without
deformations.   It  is  possible  to  apply  the  solution  to  create "frames"(shpangout's)   in   submarines,  which  will  strengthen  the
strength of the tank without increasing its wall thickness. Frames are internal and external.

it  is  not  necessary  to solder the frames to the tank inside - this will  complicate the cleaning - the frames can be performed as a power
plug-in construction, which can be pulled out and washed separately.

External  frames  are  best  done  in the style of "steam-punk" 🙂 in combination  with copper and chrome (polished) it will be sold just to
put as an element of the interior
Here is a picture (to understand the essence) :

( no rivets needed )

3)  A  simple diaphragm pump at 12 volt power. I have a few, I brought it  from  China  for  my  experiments - the price ranges from 10 to 15
dollars, excluding delivery.
I  have  four pumps now, different power and different pressure, up to -90kPa,  but  you  have enough for the experiments and -40 ...- 50kPa.
for example:
http://yanhuafaith.com/vacuum-pump-series/brush-vacuum-pump-series/z50series-148.html
You can search for the same pumps in your USA, on eBay

the pump that I indicated above - I put it right on the way out of the moonshine,  it pumps everything through it. Plastic does not smell, it
can be used to store food. This pump is enough for you to conduct experiments.

4) hoses with a thick wall. I use food 7mm internal and 2.5mm wall.
http://www.symmer.ua/product.html?id=12
"SYMMER Alco SAPE"  (plastic hose for alcohol)
Hose material: translucent elastic PE
Operating temperature: -10˚C + 60˚C
Food
Cadmium Free Cd, Barium Ba, Lead Pb
Operating pressure / critical pressure: 10/25 bar
This hose keeps pressure up to -90 kPa without deformation.
This is an example, it is not necessary to buy a hose in this company

You  can  use  a  normal silicone hose, but inside it, lay a spiral of stainless  wire  or  copper  wire  so  that  the hose does not wrinkle
inside.

5) manometer showing vacuum - for example, here:
https://apollo-ireland.akamaized.net/v1/files/017el6xbowzq-UA/image;s=1000x700

6)  to  assemble  a  simple  circuit:  a  power supply unit from a 12V computer,  a button or a toggle switch for on-off pump, hoses for tank and mash.

well, through a tee - a pressure gauge on the pump suction, a pressure gauge  should  be  placed  higher  -  so  that  the moonshine from the moonshine outlet or the column would not get into it.

7)  check  the vacuum - the pump will pump up for example -40kPa in an empty tank - we turn on the pump and wait until it pumps up the vacuum -40kPa  -  we  turn off the pump and wait - it should hold for about a minute, do not whistle anywhere.

😎  fill  in  the  mash (mash), assemble the installation, stock up on paper with a pen (pencil) and camera 🙂
we  start  to heat the mash - we heat up to 40 degrees (degassing) and at  the  same  time we thresh with a pump to -50 ... 55kPa. Find out a lot of interesting things about "carbonated drinks"

9)  heat  the  braga  (mash)  up  to 51 .... 55 degrees, with the pump holding  -60...-70kPa, you can not warm it up first and then suck it
out  -  explosive  boiling  is  possible  -  the  tank  will bounce
Therefore  we heat and hold the vacuum. We supply cooling water to the cooler;  if  you  have a column, we also supply a little water. With a dephlegmator  it  will  be  difficult  -  you  will have to re-set the temperature in it for the vacuum. At this temperature methanol will go -  drops,  if  you have it, and other "aromatic".
The output is small, with a tank of 20-25 liters (I have such a tank). I had up to 100 ml of “heads” of everything.

10)  well,  how  have you reached 55 degrees - do not yawn and not run away  -  warm  up  to  57-61 degrees celsius and -60-70kPa. This is a very responsible place - a large output (just a stream) of alcohol of 96-98degrees  of  the  fortress  can go, if you have moonshine. So that the pump  does not choke, we also look at the outlet hoses so that they do not overflow. Time on-off pump, hands.

11) if you do not go alcohol at 60 degrees of heat - gently warm up to 63...64,  maybe  you  have  a  great moonshine design or mash, but carefully  -  after  the  "start  pouring"  you may have to reduce the temperature from 63-64  to 55-57 degrees, you have to watch along the way, and  here  the  dances begin with a tambourine around the dephlegmator and its water cooling ... (I had many problems with the exact settings of  the process). So I would recommend if anyone has columns - use the column  in  the moonshine mode, in the first experiments not to suffer with a dephlegmator and its settings. The product and it will turn out cleaner  and  more pleasant than "according to the classics", you will see and feel yourself

12)  well,  and  look after the process, do not forget to pump out the vacuum  with  the  pump (it will fall) and pump the product out of the hoses  we  measure the density, make sure that the tank does not jump up to a boil,  and does not go "dregs" from splashing mash through your entire installation.

[Alex_Sor]

% vol -- temperature boil (teoretical)