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Fermentation stuck


gmdiny

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On 8/5/2021 at 12:50 PM, SlickFloss said:

 

This forum has a wonderful search function. We've covered this topic before at length in multiple threads, my favorite is below

Albeit for rum, the chemistry still stands.

 

As for personal anecdotes, a consult of mine received a 91 and an 89 on a pear and an apple brandy, both of which we adjusted with citric. Judges notes came back calling us out for doing so. Also, Nancy Fraley trains people (specifically spirits judges) to recognize the affect of citric adjustment in grain whiskey, and your scores in pretty much all the major competitions will suffer for doing so as she has trained almost all of those judges pallettes.

 

If you don't believe me, fine, search function we've had the judges discussion before too.

 

The theory behind it is Citric acid is an organic acid, which will affect transterification of your mash because it is a carboxylic acid. Carboxylic acids and ethanol create esters through massive cascading reactions.

Mallic Phosphoric and lactic are all generally safe effective and common PH adjusters in large scale operations. Some people use sulfuric. 

[quote from linked post below]

"   On 5/25/2021 at 3:23 PM,  Foreshot said: 

 

So to explain this a little (for everyone aside from SCD) - citric acid is a carboxylic acid where sulfuric isn't. Citric acid will take part in esterification reactions, sulfuric won't. So when you added Citric acid you changed what esters were being formed. If you used sulfuric it would have enhanced what esters were previously being made. You wouldn't change the flavor as much as enhance it. The flavor might change though as the catalyst will enhance all esterification reactions, not just the "good" ones."

 

But oh wait! Lactic is an organic you say? Yes it absolutely is, but it is not citric. Citric and lactic perform in identifiable and predictable ways in esterification. Lactic has been deemed acceptable and appropriate from its tradition in bourbon and brewing in general. or, in another way, lactic will do what we want it do, citric won't (from a flavor perspective).

 

 

I appreciate the more informative reply.   I use the search function often.   Sometimes it's....well...not satisfying.    It only works well when you type the boolean search perfectly, or you already know what you're looking for.   Again, you'll be well served to be helpful, like this most recent post of yours was, rather than pretending everyone knows the ADI Forums or processes you're using as well as you do.   Thanks again, I'm always willing to try new things and/or improve my processes.

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5 hours ago, LuckyGuy said:

I appreciate the more informative reply.   I use the search function often.   Sometimes it's....well...not satisfying.    It only works well when you type the boolean search perfectly, or you already know what you're looking for.   Again, you'll be well served to be helpful, like this most recent post of yours was, rather than pretending everyone knows the ADI Forums or processes you're using as well as you do.   Thanks again, I'm always willing to try new things and/or improve my processes.

You're welcome for the more informative reply. I acknowledge the receipt of your feedback. I will continue to critique other's processes when shared on this forum per my experience, and further elaborate if/when people express a desire to know more as I have done on this forum for years. Just for the record, you did not ask for feedback, you recommended a chemically flawed process to others. Just because I quoted you doesn't mean I was talking directly to you, I was commenting to OP (and anyone capitalizing on the search function) within the context of this conversation not to do what you said.  


Thankfully, you and I do not have to coexist together in the same production facility, because we would not have fun. However, I will continue to provide feedback for you in any area should you request it, as well as correct the feedback you (or others) give to others if I disagree with it.  I also welcome being publicly corrected in this forum for mine and others benefits, because I am here to participate in the elevation of the industry as a whole. Not just my own individual distilling experience.

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I also missed the previous posts on citric acid, read through some of them, and appreciate this thread. When I go back into production of mashes that require a PH adjustment this Fall, I was planning on switching over to dunder to correct PH anyways. I will now do so sooner rather than later.

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  • 7 months later...

I have to admit I’ve learned a lot from this.  Our Bourbon is very well received but I’m open to finding new pathways.  Will try malic and maybe sulfuric to lower pH pre-mash in a couple runs and see what happens. 
 

malic is 2x price of citric, I wonder if it takes more or less to accomplish same pH reduction. 

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