What happens if you need to move after getting the federal permit?

[davdear]

I saw a post on the forum somewhere but can't find it. It mentioned someone who started in a small place, got the federal permit, then moved to a bigger place and transferred/amended the permit to the new location. In this case it sounded like it was planned that way. Whether you have to move because you must or if you planned to is it difficult to amend or transfer the federal permit? How is it done? Thanks!

[Foreshot]

Dave Dunbar did the paperwork for us. It went through pretty quickly. You have 60 days to move bondable materials & equipment to the new location. You will probably will need to deal with state issues. It's like redoing your initial license but it is faster, doesn't require the personal financial stuff, and there's generally no issues getting it approved.

[davdear]

Thanks! Doesn't sound so bad.

[Skaalvenn]

We moved after about 3 years and it wasn't so bad. The only issue was getting the lease dates and the TTB to line up properly so we weren't pissing away $15,000 in rent for the "maybe it will be this month?" wait when it comes to applying for the initial, or amending a DSP.  I think ours took about 50 days and a lot of phone calls during the last week.

 

[dhdunbar]

You can't begin operations at the new location until TTB approves the application for that location.  If you do not want a disruption, you need to apply well in advance and ask TTB to grant you 60 days to make the move, during which time you want to conduct operations at both locations under the same permit and registration.  You can also qualify the new location as a discontinuous premises to the first, then curtail the first premises after approval.  Just plan ahead. 

[davdear]

Just curious: since you have to list all your equipment in your application what do you do if you get new equipment, or get rid of something you had at the beginning?

[dhdunbar]

The general rule is that if there is a change in any information in the current, approved notice, you must amend the registration with 30 days of the change unless another time period is specified in part 19.  You list major equipment, which includes tanks, stills and condensers.   Both tanks and stills have other rules.

In the case of major equipment other than stills, you are supposed to submit a letterhead notice to any changes to TTB.  You must then incorporate the changes when you next amend.  [§19.122].  A notice does not require prior approval [see also §19.1, definition of letterhead notice].  This means that since there are no separate provisions for notices, if you file on line, you submit the amendment to the notice, but because prior approval is not required, you may use the equipment before approval. 

However, in the case of stills, you must register a still at the time that you set it up.  The law [26 USC 5179(a)] provides that every person having in his possession or custody, or under his control, any still or distilling apparatus set up, shall register such still or apparatus with the Secretary immediately on its being set up, by subscribing and filing with the Secretary a statement, in writing ...

The regulations are in part 29.   Set up means to put it over a source of heat, not simply assembling it without attaching it to a source of heat. Part 29 does not specifically require that TTB approve the registration before you set it up, but approval of the registration by the TTB officer constitute registration [§29.55].  This language makes it unclear if you may legally use the still before TTB approves the application to register. However, the law says that you must register it by submitting a written statement and makes no reference to approval.  

A DSP registers the still by including it on its registration DSP application [§19.79].  The still is registered when TTB approves the application.  Again, while it is clear that you may not use the still until you have filed the application to register (to use it you must first attach a source of heat), this does not say that you may not use the still until TTB approves the application.  In my opinion, the language is loose, but the underlying state says only that you must register it by submitting a written statement.   However, because the regulation states that approval constitutes registration, the safe interpretation is that TTB  interprets the statute to require that you not use the still until TTB approves the the notice you file under under §5179, but I do not find that intent in the code.  Important -  the courts give great deference to the agency granted the authority.  They give no deference to the opinion of the likes of me. 

If you want a definitive answer, ask TTB.  But you may have an interesting time finding someone who understands the issues.  

 

 

 

[davdear]

dhdunbar You definitely know the Federal Laws well- Thank You for the knowledgeable, helpful answer!