Rye berries conversion issue

[Woukool]

Hello there,

I'm presenty doing some tests (5 gal) mashing unmalted rye berries. 

I recently bought some berries from a local organic farmer instead of buying from the brewing shop.

The farmer didn't know if his rye was suitable for brewing, so I decided to give a try.

It turned out to be a horrendous mash. There were close to no sugar extraction after at least two hours resting at 158-185oF. Enzyme distillazyme AA was added in the water prior to adding the grain and rice hulls. Then another time after 1 hours seeing there was no conversion of sugar at all. The ph was at 5,5-6. At they end I was reaching a miserable 2 Brix. Grain bill was 5kg (12.1 lbs) unmalted rye in 28L (7.4 gal)

Do you think the problem would be in the rye variety? Am I missing something? I've done a couple batches before with storebought rye and it's been OK (although still not satisfied of my conversion/attenuation)

The grain seems a bit smaller in size and darker than what I get from the shop. 

Is there a difference between the rye berries I would get from a farmer and the one from the store? Is there an extra step I need to do in the processing? Reading on internet, it is mentionned that the rye needs cracking and cooking. Or does it need milling? I know reading on this forum that folks don't necessary mill their rye... I'm a bit confused, help me!!

Cheers!

[Silk City Distillers]

Wow, where to start.

Milling is absolutely necessary, everyone mills their rye (not sure where you got the idea it wasn't required).  Grain is grain, there is nothing wrong with the grain.  158f is not hot enough for unmalted rye.  Try holding above 200f for maximal conversion.  Total time will be based on your mill, coarse or fine.

Alpha Amylase alone will not yield a fermentable wash when mashing 100% unmalted grain, that's only half the conversion.  Do not add enzyme to water, it's added to mash.  You need to mash in, get your pH, adjust pH, and then dose your enzyme.  While your pH could be a bit lower, but that's not your problem.  You need to also use glucoamylase, and that will have a pH and temperature range that is very different from alpha.  

Not surprised about your 2 brix, probably an optimistic guess since your recipe basically just makes dirty water.  Suspect your other brew store batches were made with malted rye (having all the necessary enzyme, and far easier to mash than unmalted rye).

Why are you adding rice hulls?  There is no way you are lautering a 100% raw rye mash, not without a far more complex step mash method and additional enzymes (beta-glucanase and xylanase), and even then it'll still be miserable.

 

[Woukool]

On 7/2/2021 at 7:18 AM, Silk City Distillers said:

Wow, where to start.

Milling is absolutely necessary, everyone mills their rye (not sure where you got the idea it wasn't required).  Grain is grain, there is nothing wrong with the grain.  158f is not hot enough for unmalted rye.  Try holding above 200f for maximal conversion.  Total time will be based on your mill, coarse or fine.

Wow indeed, I was completely off tracks on this one... Any recommandations on the milling size, coarse of fine? I rest the grain sat 185 but it eventualy drops at 158 after over 2 hours. I'm using a cooler mashtun for the tests with no heater. The recommanded temperatures for Distilazyme AA are between 167 and 185. Wouldn't 200 affect enzymes efficiency?

On 7/2/2021 at 7:18 AM, Silk City Distillers said:

Alpha Amylase alone will not yield a fermentable wash when mashing 100% unmalted grain, that's only half the conversion.  Do not add enzyme to water, it's added to mash.  You need to mash in, get your pH, adjust pH, and then dose your enzyme.  While your pH could be a bit lower, but that's not your problem.  You need to also use glucoamylase, and that will have a pH and temperature range that is very different from alpha. 

Perfect, I will add grains before adding enzymes and rectifying pH. I add distilazyme GA right after the yeast as per Lallemand recommandation. Again not a good idea?

On 7/2/2021 at 7:18 AM, Silk City Distillers said:

Not surprised about your 2 brix, probably an optimistic guess since your recipe basically just makes dirty water.  Suspect your other brew store batches were made with malted rye (having all the necessary enzyme, and far easier to mash than unmalted rye).

Omg they were not supposed to be malted. :s  I was also adding the enzymes in the mash before, maybe that helped. I dunno, I was still getting 12-13 Brix, which is not that great at all I know...

On 7/2/2021 at 7:18 AM, Silk City Distillers said:

Why are you adding rice hulls?  There is no way you are lautering a 100% raw rye mash, not without a far more complex step mash method and additional enzymes (beta-glucanase and xylanase), and even then it'll still be miserable.

I'm mashing in a cooler. I need to drain the content and without rice hull, I'm heading right to stuck mash! The distillery I work is not ready to invest in a proper mash kit now, at least not until I can come up with something great which is not that easy with two coolers and a few carboy meh! I wish I could ferment on grain. I might try with our 13 gal SS Brewtech. 

Thank you so much for the input. Obviously, I'm no mashing expert. I do gins, maple spirit and liqueurs. And Rye soon hopefuly! 

[Bier Distillery]

On 7/2/2021 at 7:18 AM, Silk City Distillers said:

 Do not add enzyme to water, it's added to mash.  

FWIW, I've never noticed a difference and I'm not sure why it would matter?  Aren't you mainly just briefly diluting it?  Usually we add it to water so we have less chance of forgetting it and having a "oh shit" moment later during the mash.  Granted we may be overdosing.

On 7/2/2021 at 7:18 AM, Silk City Distillers said:

get your pH, adjust pH, and then dose your enzyme.  While your pH could be a bit lower, but that's not your problem.  You need to also use glucoamylase, and that will have a pH and temperature range that is very different from alpha.  

Again, I used to care a lot about pH, but in my experience I've yet to be able to document an improvement by adjusting pH beyond what it already is.  Again with the caveat that we may be overdosing, but the dose is so small, using potentially more is cheaper than worrying about it and taking the time to adjust the pH by adding yet another ingredient.  What's the cost comparison between the acid/labor and just using more enzyme?

Anyone actually done scientific A/B tests beyond what the manufacturers tell us?

5 hours ago, Woukool said:

I'm mashing in a cooler. I need to drain the content and without rice hull, I'm heading right to stuck mash! The distillery I work is not ready to invest in a proper mash kit now, at least not until I can come up with something great which is not that easy with two coolers and a few carboy meh! I wish I could ferment on grain. I might try with our 13 gal SS Brewtech. 

There is no way to make money lautering/sparging rye.  You will hate yourself every time you do.  It's a dead end.

[Woukool]

On 7/3/2021 at 7:31 PM, Bier Distillery said:

There is no way to make money lautering/sparging rye.  You will hate yourself every time you do.  It's a dead end.

Ok sure, I understand. This might be a very simple question, but how do you pump the grains out of your fermenter? Don't the grains get stuck in the vessel?

 

[Bier Distillery]

33 minutes ago, Woukool said:

Ok sure, I understand. This might be a very simple question, but how do you pump the grains out of your fermenter? Don't the grains get stuck in the vessel?

 

You need an appropriate pump, usually some sort of positive displacement pump.  I use a lobe pump.  It can create a little bit of suction to get things going if gravity doesn't do the job.  An appropriate sized drain is important too.  2" is the bare minimum but can cause some problems if the grain compacts too much after fermentation is done.  3"+ is better.

[Silk City Distillers]

On 7/3/2021 at 7:31 PM, Bier Distillery said:

FWIW, I've never noticed a difference and I'm not sure why it would matter?  Aren't you mainly just briefly diluting it?  Usually we add it to water so we have less chance of forgetting it and having a "oh shit" moment later during the mash.  Granted we may be overdosing.

There is a greater risk of denaturing enzyme by adding it directly to the water, as opposed to adding it after mash-in, after pH was adjusted (if necessary).  Thicker mashes are generally more protective to fragile enzyme. For maximum fermentability and yield, you should always pitch enzyme into the most ideal condition possible - this means ideal temp, ideal pH, and ideal timing from a step mash perspective.  If you consider how to design your workflow to ensure tighter batch-to-batch consistency (making great whiskey once is easy, making great whiskey every time is hard), you'll likely need to consider these parameters in that.  Not to say that once you get into a production "groove", hitting your targets becomes far easier.

Worked in an Italian restaurant as a kid, there was this brilliant old Italian pizza guy, the only guy in the place allowed to make the dough.  While there was probably a recipe at one point in time, he did everything by look and feel because he could, and because he probably did it ten thousand times before.  I worked with him on the weekends for something like 5 years, and I couldn't ever come close.

[SlickFloss]

On 7/3/2021 at 6:31 PM, Bier Distillery said:

 

Again, I used to care a lot about pH, but in my experience I've yet to be able to document an improvement by adjusting pH beyond what it already is.  Again with the caveat that we may be overdosing, but the dose is so small, using potentially more is cheaper than worrying about it and taking the time to adjust the pH by adding yet another ingredient.  What's the cost comparison between the acid/labor and just using more enzyme?

Anyone actually done scientific A/B tests beyond what the manufacturers tell us?

Our system is designed to recover stillage to adjust PH like its a standard input (*similar to water). Acid is free labor is minimal.

 

Mash grain in thick @ 140ish (squeeze the water), send the cooker to 200 f

 

Adjust PH for High temp tol AA using stillage, pitch enzyme so we are converting as we are cooking

 

Hold for 45-60 mins once reach 200

 

add water

 

check temp and PH

 

Add Stillage

 

Ends up around 155/150 ish

 

rest for 45 mins, adjust with stillage to PH for Glucoamylase (will be around 145/140 when rest is done)

 

Pitch gluco, send to fermenter through Hx, recheck PH, Pitch Yeast around 90, cool to fermentation starting temp in ferm,

 

BLAST OFF

 

 

 

 

we saw about 1.2% yield increase off mastering our PH, I paid attention to it specifically for about 10 months and its success has knocked itself off my radar. My guys would've let me know if anything slipped back efficiency wise.

 

Cheers

[johnnyrains]

On 7/3/2021 at 5:31 PM, Bier Distillery said:

There is no way to make money lautering/sparging rye.  You will hate yourself every time you do.  It's a dead end.

The best tip I have read in awhile!