Am I doing this correctly?

[BigStickDistillery]

So I'm working through my first run of distilling and wanted to share my setup, what I've done, and where I'm running into problems. All help is welcomed and I'll try to be as detailed as I can. I've done a lot of research on distilling however with the vast number of options on the internet to read, who knows if its correct.

So I recently purchased a 5 gallon 2 pot still. More or less its a big 5 gallon stainless steel pot that has a little condenser pot that sits on top. (Pretty much the first image that pops up when you search "2 pot still") My model does not contain a thumper keg though. Additionally I built a temperature controller that can maintain the temperature on the inside of the pot by a thermocouple feeding back to a PID type controller that then controls a relay powering an electric hotplate (Again, might be more information than needed but I've got to cover all my bases). I've been able to reach and maintain temperatures all the way up to 220 degrees F which was just the highest value I set it to, but more than enough for this process (as I've read).

I decided that the first batch I would run would be for a Rum, as that's my favorite. The mixture I went with was a sugar only mash which was 2.5 gallons of water, 4.25 lbs of raw cane sugar and 1/2 a packet of Rum Turbo Yeast (which said it could make up to 6.6 gallons). I heated the water up to 125 F and mixed in the raw sugar until it dissolved. Then I cooled the mix over a couple hours while stirring it for a minute or so every 10-15 minutes until it lowered down to 80 F. Once it reached this temp I added the yeast in and aerated it between multiple containers. I then returned it to the 5 gallon pot and sealed it up. I sealed it with the air lock properly. I let the mash sit for 17 days and checked the air lock regularly for bubbles which it did have for a couple days which would indicate that the yeast was doing its job. Unfortunately with it being a stainless steel pot I am unable to see inside of it for other visual indicators of it working. I pulled it after 17 days when bubbles were no longer accumulating in the air lock valve. I removed the lid and it looked about the same as it did when I sealed it up. Brown water pretty much but it did have a smell as if it was fermented. I sent it through some filtering to remove sediment by sending it through a cheese cloth draped in a wire filter/strainer. Not much sediment needed removed it seemed.

I then attempted to take a SG reading with it in my hydrometer which is where I drew my first red flag. I filled my cylinder to nearly the top and dropped my hydrometer in slowly and it quickly sank all the way to the bottom. Confused, I removed it an checked to see if it was broken by replacing the mix in the cylinder with tap water. The hydrometer floated precisely at the level it was supposed to for water. I then replaced the water back with my fermented mix and it again sank to the bottom. I found it odd that it sank lower than it did in water which again was the first alarm. I decided to proceed with the process anyhow and just hope that everything up to this point was done correctly. I sealed it back up and attached the condenser. I set the heat to 175 F initially and waited. it made it to temp and I started to run my condenser by pumping water in at 50 F. Waited and waited for about an hour and a half and didn't get any drips. I steadily began to raise the temperature at 15 min intervals by about 5 degrees. Finally, around 190 F I began to get some liquid dripping out of the condenser. This high temp to start made me think back to my bad hydrometer readings and considered that maybe they're related. I let the still run for some time after and slightly upping the temp about a degree at a time every time the dripping stopped until it started to get close to 210 F to which I killed the process as it produced maybe a cup or two or liquid. I then took this liquid and tested it with the hydrometer and it again sank directly to the bottom (less than the reading I got with tap water).

I've since threw the little that was produced back into my original mash and added some more yeast and put it back into fermentation just in case.

I'm looking to see if there was any step I missed or anything that pops out as something that's throwing my entire batch off. Why it's not giving me a SG reading and why it didn't start producing until such a high temperature. Also what should I be looking for volume wise for the batch size I was running. I understand I'm not gonna get 2.5 gallons from a 2.5 gallon batch and that the foreshots and heads are going to get pitched but what an estimate liquid volume output for this run?

 

Any and all help would be greatly appreciated. I know a lot of people run these processes from just feeling it out but I'm a very technical person so I like to micro-manage the process if possible. I will hear advice from either side though.

[stillwagon]

It sounds like you are using the wrong hydrometer for the process.  Turbo yeasts, which produce a mediocre product at best, are usually finished fermenting in two to three days, so 17 days is excessive.  But, if it was tightly sealed, it should have been fine to distill once fermented as long as you had sanitized all equipment and vessels. If it fermented properly, the airlock should have been very active after 24 hours.  If you plan on continuing with turbo yeast, sanitize all equipment and vessels and follow the directions on the package. you might want to study a bit more on the fermentation process in general, and specifically for cane sugar.  Familiarize yourself with the different variables as well: pH, nutrients (usually not needed with turbo yeast), temperature, etc.

[BigStickDistillery]

26 minutes ago, stillwagon said:

It sounds like you are using the wrong hydrometer for the process.  Turbo yeasts, which produce a mediocre product at best, are usually finished fermenting in two to three days, so 17 days is excessive.  But, if it was tightly sealed, it should have been fine to distill once fermented as long as you had sanitized all equipment and vessels. If it fermented properly, the airlock should have been very active after 24 hours.  If you plan on continuing with turbo yeast, sanitize all equipment and vessels and follow the directions on the package. you might want to study a bit more on the fermentation process in general, and specifically for cane sugar.  Familiarize yourself with the different variables as well: pH, nutrients (usually not needed with turbo yeast), temperature, etc.

Thanks for the response. Some follow up questions/statements.

The hydrometer I have is reading the SG rather than the proof. From what i read before, its the hydrometer for pre-distilling readings rather than the alcoholmeter for post-distilling readings. It's ranged from 0.99 - 1.17 specific gravity (0%-20%). Is that not the correct hydrometer to test the wash before and after fermenting? If not, is there a specific description/keyword to look for when getting a hydrometer?

What type of yeast should I be looking for if not Turbo Yeast. I can understand how rushing the fermentation process with turbo yeast can make for a lower quality product but this is what a couple websites recommended. Any recommendation of your own would be appreciated.

Additionally would it be best to just scrap that original batch and start fresh?

Thank you for your input

[Silk City Distillers]

3 hours ago, BigStickDistillery said:

Additionally I built a temperature controller that can maintain the temperature on the inside of the pot by a thermocouple feeding back to a PID type controller that then controls a relay powering an electric hotplate

I got this far…

This doesn’t work.  You can’t control the temperature in the kettle.  You can only control the power input to the kettle.  Your temp based PID will likely only vary on and off. With no power control.  The boiling point is a function of the alcohol in the kettle, the boiling point increases gradually throughout the run.  It is likely that your hot plate isn’t variable either. 

[Bier Distillery]

@BigStickDistillery, start here: https://homedistiller.org/forum/

[BigStickDistillery]

15 hours ago, Silk City Distillers said:

I got this far…

This doesn’t work.  You can’t control the temperature in the kettle.  You can only control the power input to the kettle.  Your temp based PID will likely only vary on and off. With no power control.  The boiling point is a function of the alcohol in the kettle, the boiling point increases gradually throughout the run.  It is likely that your hot plate isn’t variable either. 

Okay so if I'm understanding you correctly. I shouldn't try to control the temperature per say.. Just let it do its thing but instead control the power/heat dependent on the drip rate. i.e. if the drip rate is too fast, lower the power/heat and if its too slow, raise the power/heat. And more or less trust that the temp inside the pot is doing its thing. Is it still worth having a thermocouple inside the tank for monitoring and just not have it running the controller?

[Southernhighlander]

1 hour ago, BigStickDistillery said:

Okay so if I'm understanding you correctly. I shouldn't try to control the temperature per say.. Just let it do its thing but instead control the power/heat dependent on the drip rate. i.e. if the drip rate is too fast, lower the power/heat and if its too slow, raise the power/heat. And more or less trust that the temp inside the pot is doing its thing. Is it still worth having a thermocouple inside the tank for monitoring and just not have it running the controller?

 

 The only reason to monitor the pot temp is so that you know when the operating temp is going to be reached so that you can back off the heat input so that you don't cause the still to puke.  If your still had a head or column, the most important place to monitor temp, during operation, would be at the top of the column or head.

  Aside from the boiling point increase throughout the run that Silk mentioned, if you were to try set point temp control in the pot, your pot would reach the set point temp and then the heat would turn off and as soon as the heat turned off, you would have zero ethanol output .  It would take minutes for the temp to drop to the point where your heat would come back on and then you would only have output for a few seconds until the set point temp is reached again and once the set point is reached, the heat would turn off and you would have zero output again for several minutes while the mash cools.  In a direct fire still like yours, no heat input means no ethanol output.  

[Southernhighlander]

I grew up in the Great Smokey Mountains in Eastern Tennessee.  There was a guy we all called Big Stick (because of what the girls had to say about him).  He always wore a flop hat with a sharpened coondick poked through the felt.  https://theevolutionstore.com/raccoon-penis-bone/  I remember seeing him stand in line at the bank using his coondick as a toothpick.  The other use for a coondick is to place it in the output tube of your still with the curve pointed down so that the ethanol stream goes strait down into the collection jar, which is why many of the old moonshiners would have a coondick stuck in their hat.

[SlickFloss]

given you are at the level of setting up PIDS, you could probably upgrade the still design yourself for very little money. As in build your own. Paul could sell you a better unit than this as well. I struggle with trying to be precise with this design because it lacks a lot of control by its functional nature. For instance, you can totally learn to crack any whip, but doesnt mean you can make any spirit on any whip. Some whips crack different and that's just that. 

 

This is a precursory response to your point I got sidetracked after looking it up, I will review rest of protocol and respond on issues I see if you think it would be helpful later

[SlickFloss]

33 minutes ago, Southernhighlander said:

I grew up in the Great Smokey Mountains in Eastern Tennessee.  There was a guy we all called Big Stick (because of what the girls had to say about him).  He always wore a flop hat with a sharpened coondick poked through the felt.  https://theevolutionstore.com/raccoon-penis-bone/  I remember seeing him stand in line at the bank using his coondick as a toothpick.  The other use for a coondick is to place it in the output tube of your still with the curve pointed down so that the ethanol stream goes strait down into the collection jar, which is why many of the old moonshiners would have a coondick stuck in their hat.

I fucking love you and the history you've mastered and shared friend

[BigStickDistillery]

1 hour ago, Southernhighlander said:

 

 The only reason to monitor the pot temp is so that you know when the operating temp is going to be reached so that you can back off the heat input so that you don't cause the still to puke.  If your still had a head or column, the most important place to monitor temp, during operation, would be at the top of the column or head.

  Aside from the boiling point increase throughout the run that Silk mentioned, if you were to try set point temp control in the pot, your pot would reach the set point temp and then the heat would turn off and as soon as the heat turned off, you would have zero ethanol output .  It would take minutes for the temp to drop to the point where your heat would come back on and then you would only have output for a few seconds until the set point temp is reached again and once the set point is reached, the heat would turn off and you would have zero output again for several minutes while the mash cools.  In a direct fire still like yours, no heat input means no ethanol output.  

That last statement actually makes a lot of sense as every time i would up the temp a degree (turn the hot plate back on) it would start producing again until it reached temp and turned off. Guess i misunderstood the articles i read when it said "set temperature to so and so degrees"

 

Additionally, that coondick statement is pretty interesting. The backstory for the name for me is my father (a bourbon collector) would always quote Teddy Roosevelt "Speak softly and carry a big stick"  which he then followed with his more modernized version of that quote "Don't brag about how big your d*** is" or don't gloat or brag about yourself. More or less prove yourself with actions not words. That always stuck with me and since I intend on making him his own bourbon once i figure the process out i thought id give it some of that influence.  

[BigStickDistillery]

57 minutes ago, SlickFloss said:

given you are at the level of setting up PIDS, you could probably upgrade the still design yourself for very little money. As in build your own. Paul could sell you a better unit than this as well. I struggle with trying to be precise with this design because it lacks a lot of control by its functional nature. For instance, you can totally learn to crack any whip, but doesnt mean you can make any spirit on any whip. Some whips crack different and that's just that. 

 

This is a precursory response to your point I got sidetracked after looking it up, I will review rest of protocol and respond on issues I see if you think it would be helpful later

I'm actually an controls engineer and work regularly with temperature controllers so once someone mentioned earlier about what type of output I'm looking for, i started doing some estimating on the correct parts. I need to verify that my temp controller has an output option for variable control and then its just a matter of controlling the percentage of power being output rather than how its being done now. 

More than happy to hear someone else's opinion on the subject but in the mean time I'm just going to control the heat manually and practice the tried and true method first before starting to automate the process. 

[kleclerc77]

If I could recommend one add-on to your still set up, it would be a pressure relief valve on the pot. Paul or Slick would have the best advice as to the exact parameters there. That is my number one advice to the DIY crowd. There have been multiple still explosions over the past few years that were results of either non-existent or way miscalculated pressure relief valves. Probably many more on the DIY scene that don't make the news. Luckily the main offender, a still manufacturer out of Oregon, is out of business. Though stills operate under very low pressure, something getting clogged in a worm condenser or in a packed column will cause the still to pressurize, leading to a possible explosion of the unit. Stay safe.

 

[SlickFloss]

37 minutes ago, kleclerc77 said:

If I could recommend one add-on to your still set up, it would be a pressure relief valve on the pot. Paul or Slick would have the best advice as to the exact parameters there. That is my number one advice to the DIY crowd. There have been multiple still explosions over the past few years that were results of either non-existent or way miscalculated pressure relief valves. Probably many more on the DIY scene that don't make the news. Luckily the main offender, a still manufacturer out of Oregon, is out of business. Though stills operate under very low pressure, something getting clogged in a worm condenser or in a packed column will cause the still to pressurize, leading to a possible explosion of the unit. Stay safe.

 

This x 2 for sure, easy to pop on, but as I mentioned you'd be better off starting from scratch than from what I saw online when I googled double pot

 

56 minutes ago, BigStickDistillery said:

I'm actually an controls engineer and work regularly with temperature controllers so once someone mentioned earlier about what type of output I'm looking for, i started doing some estimating on the correct parts. I need to verify that my temp controller has an output option for variable control and then its just a matter of controlling the percentage of power being output rather than how its being done now. 

More than happy to hear someone else's opinion on the subject but in the mean time I'm just going to control the heat manually and practice the tried and true method first before starting to automate the process. 

I apologize but what I was recomended got kind of convoluted because I'm a hilljack.

 

What I was saying was given you are able to set up PIDS, you could build a better still than this to use yourself. I wasn't referring to additional automation. By design these double kettles (what im looking at specifically is the second picture from that its a Sutech but its a common Chinese design for moonshine stills there sold as a bunch of different names. this is the one im referring to. https://www.amazon.com/Suteck-Moonshine-Spirits-Distiller-Stainless/dp/B01A4EVWYY/ref=asc_df_B01A4EVWYY/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=167141564589&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9211746420770273950&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9018886&hvtargid=pla-314031787122&psc=1

 

If i'm wrong disregard the following:

First thing I don't like are them three clamps on there holding the lid on. The welds are shitty and I've seen them fail in operation before. I like that style of clamp in this exact application in other executions, but in the units of these I have run myself the welds are shitty weak and I've seen em pop.

I also don't like the condenser and "second pot", which depending on how it is piped inside of there is likely functionally a thumper,  sitting onto of the kettle. Kettle taking direct fire, any dribbles uh oh. and those stainless flex lines? They can leak for sure depending on manufacturer. As well as the copper ones for that matter. Never trust a fitting you didn't fit yourself. For those reasons I prefer them offset from the kettle. But also, beyond those reasons, I don't like the condenser being on top because it will absorb heat which is just more energy too balance in general, and I like the thumper to be self insulated, and heated by the vapor steam, not latent heat of the kettle. Gives more control on a finishing run.

 

Also, get a cheap little pressure valve on that mother fucker or you could go kabloomey. This can helped with that clamp issue I mentioned.

 

But beyond that, Ive never seen a whip I couldn't crack as long as it had energy to it, and I would include this rig on that. 

 

It is tricker to learn cuts on a still like this imo. Like I said, build a new one that better fits your purpose. Can still be rudimentary and cost effective. 

[Silk City Distillers]

Holy hell what a piece of work that thing is.

Can you throw it all away and start over?

[BigStickDistillery]

23 minutes ago, SlickFloss said:

This x 2 for sure, easy to pop on, but as I mentioned you'd be better off starting from scratch than from what I saw online when I googled double pot

 

I apologize but what I was recomended got kind of convoluted because I'm a hilljack.

 

What I was saying was given you are able to set up PIDS, you could build a better still than this to use yourself. I wasn't referring to additional automation. By design these double kettles (what im looking at specifically is the second picture from that its a Sutech but its a common Chinese design for moonshine stills there sold as a bunch of different names. this is the one im referring to. https://www.amazon.com/Suteck-Moonshine-Spirits-Distiller-Stainless/dp/B01A4EVWYY/ref=asc_df_B01A4EVWYY/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=167141564589&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9211746420770273950&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9018886&hvtargid=pla-314031787122&psc=1

 

If i'm wrong disregard the following:

First thing I don't like are them three clamps on there holding the lid on. The welds are shitty and I've seen them fail in operation before. I like that style of clamp in this exact application in other executions, but in the units of these I have run myself the welds are shitty weak and I've seen em pop.

I also don't like the condenser and "second pot", which depending on how it is piped inside of there is likely functionally a thumper,  sitting onto of the kettle. Kettle taking direct fire, any dribbles uh oh. and those stainless flex lines? They can leak for sure depending on manufacturer. As well as the copper ones for that matter. Never trust a fitting you didn't fit yourself. For those reasons I prefer them offset from the kettle. But also, beyond those reasons, I don't like the condenser being on top because it will absorb heat which is just more energy too balance in general, and I like the thumper to be self insulated, and heated by the vapor steam, not latent heat of the kettle. Gives more control on a finishing run.

 

Also, get a cheap little pressure valve on that mother fucker or you could go kabloomey. This can helped with that clamp issue I mentioned.

 

But beyond that, Ive never seen a whip I couldn't crack as long as it had energy to it, and I would include this rig on that. 

 

It is tricker to learn cuts on a still like this imo. Like I said, build a new one that better fits your purpose. Can still be rudimentary and cost effective. 

So the pot still i got was cheap for sure. I'm not doubting that at all but i figured id start cheap until i really get a process going and then id upgrade to something worth some money. The model i have doesn't contain a thumper pot which from what i read means it wont "double distill". Again once i figure out the process and determine i enjoy doing it then ill invest in a better set up or make my own. I believe the pot i got was about $80 and i set up the PID controller for another $40 so overall its currently a rather cheap set up for starting out. Always open for suggestions for future set ups though.

[Glenlyon]

That is indeed a butt ugly still! I would suspect it was designed the factory owner's dog.

[adamOVD]

Good lord that's sketchy. How can they get away with selling something like that? I don't trust single wall flex lines to connect to my toilet, let alone a still. Between that and the racoon dick history lesson, it's best laugh I've had for a while

As for your initial post, the alcohol produced is lighter than water, so a fully fermented sugar wash will have a lower gravity than water. Distillate will need a proofing hydrometer, and temperature also has big effect on your readings. Spending a whole lot of time on homedistiller will help you learn the basics. Filtering through misinformation and finding the guys that really know their stuff is the price to pay when learning over a forum of random people doing it "illegally". Consider a course if you don't want to spend the time. Be careful. Turbo yeast sugar shine isn't worth third degree burns, and that still is very iffy.

[RumBumm]

get yourself an old beer keg and weld a steam column and condenser together and lighting a gas torch under it, is probably a better setup. you will learn so much more from it as the smells that come off the cuts are more  distinct.  after that refine the process with skill and technology.

 

[Southernhighlander]

On 8/31/2021 at 6:02 PM, adamOVD said:

Good lord that's sketchy. How can they get away with selling something like that? I don't trust single wall flex lines to connect to my toilet, let alone a still.

Bigstickdistillery,

  Adam's right, those stills really are crap.  They've been around for a few years now.  Here is one of my basic  starter stills https://moonshine-still.co/collections/moonshine-stills/products/5-cwc  The still pot is 14 and 16 gauge 304 stainless and the column is 16 gauge copper.  This still will last a lifetime or longer.  You can hand it down to your grandson some day. 

Here is a better option made from 16 gauge copper https://moonshine-still.co/collections/moonshine-stills/products/8gckc  We have sold around 10,000 small stills since 2012.  If you want something that you can really do something with then I suggest this one:  https://moonshine-still.co/collections/moonshine-stills/products/26-4b6pc  Each of these stills comes with a book that tells you everything that you need to know to get started, including mashing, recipes, how to do cuts and how to operate a still and lots of distilling history including many humorous tales about moonshiners. 

[SlickFloss]

On 8/31/2021 at 1:18 PM, Silk City Distillers said:

Holy hell what a piece of work that thing is.

Can you throw it all away and start over?

 

On 8/31/2021 at 7:56 PM, RumBumm said:

get yourself an old beer keg and weld a steam column and condenser together and lighting a gas torch under it, is probably a better setup. you will learn so much more from it as the smells that come off the cuts are more  distinct.  after that refine the process with skill and technology.

 

This is what I’m saying. Get yourself a stainless pot and some copper and wider up your own. Or buy one of them from paul

 

hey Paul ima need one of them for out the woods at my father in laws! I’ll call ya tomorrow!

[kleclerc77]

20 hours ago, Southernhighlander said:

Here is a better option made from 16 gauge copper https://moonshine-still.co/collections/moonshine-stills/products/8gckc  We have sold around 10,000 small stills since 2012.  If you want something that you can really do something with then I suggest this one:  https://moonshine-still.co/collections/moonshine-stills/products/26-4b6pc  Each of these stills comes with a book that tells you everything that you need to know to get starting, including mashing, recipes, how to do cuts and how to operate a still and lots of distilling history including many humorous tales about moonshiners. 

Do any of these come with pressure relief? I see a port on a couple of the pots you could probably pop one on? Do you sell anything like a bulb/helmet topper for these kettles as opposed to columns? I'm also in the market for something that size, as mine is at the end of its life. Preferably to be fired by a propane burner. For research purposes, of course.

[Southernhighlander]

32 minutes ago, kleclerc77 said:

Do any of these come with pressure relief? I see a port on a couple of the pots you could probably pop one on? Do you sell anything like a bulb/helmet topper for these kettles as opposed to columns? I'm also in the market for something that size, as mine is at the end of its life. Preferably to be fired by a propane burner. For research purposes, of course.

We can add a 5 psi pressure relief valve for $55.00  We have German Helmets and Scotch Columns for the 26 gallon, but they are not listed on the web site.

[Southernhighlander]

16 hours ago, SlickFloss said:

 

 

hey Paul ima need one of them for out the woods at my father in laws! I’ll call ya tomorrow!

SlickFloss

     I'm glad to sell you a little still however I do not promote any illegal distilling activity.  If you would like to order a small  still by phone: call 417-778-6100 and ask for Kathy.  If you would like to speak to me directly call 417-778-6908.

The below is on all of our small still listings:  

"These products may not be legal to operate in some areas. Affordable Distillery Equipment, LLC strongly discourages any unlawful use of these products and is not responsible for any damage or injury caused by the misuse or unlawful use of these products. Any person or entity that uses information or equipment provided by Affordable Distillery Equipment, LLC does so entirely at their own risk and accepts all liability concerning the use of the aforementioned equipment and information."

 

[SlickFloss]

On 9/2/2021 at 12:37 PM, Southernhighlander said:

SlickFloss

     I'm glad to sell you a little still however I do not promote any illegal distilling activity.  If you would like to order a small  still by phone: call 417-778-6100 and ask for Kathy.  If you would like to speak to me directly call 417-778-6908.

The below is on all of our small still listings:  

"These products may not be legal to operate in some areas. Affordable Distillery Equipment, LLC strongly discourages any unlawful use of these products and is not responsible for any damage or injury caused by the misuse or unlawful use of these products. Any person or entity that uses information or equipment provided by Affordable Distillery Equipment, LLC does so entirely at their own risk and accepts all liability concerning the use of the aforementioned equipment and information."

 

Man of my word tried to order but out of stock! I may look to upgrade or I may wait for the two inch columns to come back in stock

 

you're the man