My protocol for a 100% whole raw wheat mash, critique sought

[Kindred Spirits]

1 hour ago, needmorstuff said:

just measured gravity with my hydrometer, it's at 1.01, and it tastes sour. It's about 70 hours since i pitched the yeast and maybe 62 hours since adding the GA and Nutrients. Could it really have fermented that fast?

I'm used to high gravity sugar ferments taking a week to 10 days, but saying that I have done a molasses at 30c in 72 days before.

The krausen is still there, it is still producing co2 and it is 7c above ambient so it's still fermenting right?

 

I'm hoping you meant 72 hours for that molasses ferment.

For this one you very well could be fermented out. 15C ambient is a little cold to have that quick of a ferment, but its definitely feasible if you had good conversion and some healthy yeast.

[needmorstuff]

11 minutes ago, Kindred Spirits said:

I'm hoping you meant 72 hours for that molasses ferment.

For this one you very well could be fermented out. 15C ambient is a little cold to have that quick of a ferment, but its definitely feasible if you had good conversion and some healthy yeast.

lol, yes, 72 hours for molasses.

My yeast was fresh, the wash was very sweet before adding the yeast. I didn't do an iodine test as my GA was added and I fermented on the grain.

I'll let the krausen drop and wait for activity to die off, then take FG and rack it off/strip it. That'll be the true test.

[Glenlyon]

Fermenting dry in 72 hours is exactly what you want.

[needmorstuff]

30 minutes ago, Glenlyon said:

Fermenting dry in 72 hours is exactly what you want.

being my first one I'm just concerned that maybe something whacky is going on, like it not converting fully and hence finishing quickly. Or because it's a simultaneous scarification and fermentation that it's still a way to go.. i.e. the GA frees up some sugars, the yeast ferments it.. and that goes on for a week or so.

anyway, it's not as active today, sat at 21.5c and the gravity is 1.005. The krausen is yet to drop.

[Glenlyon]

It's done. There is nothing wrong. There is something wrong if it takes days and days to ferment. But when you're dry you're dry. That's it. The whole point of this system is efficiency and turnover. 

[needmorstuff]

using the biab allowed me to remove a lot of the solids, what i was left with was a milky solution.

started with 120l of water and 34kg of wheat, I ended up with 115l of low wines at maybe 7.8% if my readings were accurate (sg 1.065 FG 1.005)

Stripping it now, using a very low 1500w on a 80l charge, going to take bloody ages but i want to reduce my chances of scorching as this still doesn't have an agitator and the elements are inside it.

[needmorstuff]

I stripped 80l of this in a 100l kettle. I used a 3kw internal element set at around 2kw. I'm quite sure it has scorched. There is an acrid smell to the distillate. The element isn't all burnt up though.

I did this twice, didn't really notice it on the first run, worse on the second run - which is weird because the second had been left to clear and i left the trub in the buckets I used to store prior to stripping it.

My column will have 16 bubble plates, is there any point to a spirit run? or am I as well saving the energy costs and tipping it.

In a few months i will have an indirectly heated stripping still with an agitator so at least i can move forward then... and this has been a valuable learning exercise for mashing and fermenting if nothing else.

[Kindred Spirits]

It's too bad to hear that it scorched on you, did you happen to let the filtered "milky" liquid settle before running it? 

If not, and if you had more to run, it might be a good idea to thoroughly clean the still and elements, then rack off the top of what's to prevent charging the still with any sediment.

[needmorstuff]

34 minutes ago, Kindred Spirits said:

It's too bad to hear that it scorched on you, did you happen to let the filtered "milky" liquid settle before running it? 

If not, and if you had more to run, it might be a good idea to thoroughly clean the still and elements, then rack off the top of what's to prevent charging the still with any sediment.

I've run it all now..

I have since cleaned the elements and the still completely.. they are sparkly new.

One of the strips I did let settle out, the first one I didn't.

I am reticent to try again in this still and will probably wait until i have my still with agitator and jacketed heating.

So, to my question - worth running it through the stripping still again and/or the bubble column? or just tip it because it's never going to be decent product.

Everything I have read so far says tip it or use it for some other purpose.

[adamOVD]

How many proof gallons did you end up getting? Run it in the column if it is new for practice, and to clean it.

[needmorstuff]

Yes that's a good point. From 2 x 180l mash's I got 240litres if low wines that stripped are around 45 litres at 86 proof

[Pour Decisions]

On 4/27/2022 at 3:17 PM, needmorstuff said:

following, apparently the only way to follow after posting is to reply.

 

[richard1]

Nice post, also like your SOP

 

[needmorstuff]

3 hours ago, richard1 said:

Nice post, also like your SOP

 

thanks Richard, all good practice. Shame I don't yet have the equipment to allow me to fully succeed. I have considered trying to source a 2" TC attached agitator and somehow turn the 100l kettle to indirectly heated, but I just need to be patient and wait for my 300l still that is both jacketed and has an agitator.

[LuckyGuy]

On 6/10/2022 at 3:29 AM, needmorstuff said:

thanks Richard, all good practice. Shame I don't yet have the equipment to allow me to fully succeed. I have considered trying to source a 2" TC attached agitator and somehow turn the 100l kettle to indirectly heated, but I just need to be patient and wait for my 300l still that is both jacketed and has an agitator.

yeah, electric elements don't work great in anything but much more clarified elements....I ran low wines through a jacketed non-copper still and then through the electric copper still back in the first setup.   

[needmorstuff]

2 minutes ago, LuckyGuy said:

yeah, electric elements don't work great in anything but much more clarified elements....I ran low wines through a jacketed non-copper still and then through the electric copper still back in the first setup.   

Yeh that's what I'm now working toward 

[Wildfether]

Not sure where you are at @needmorstuff but here are some suggestions that may help.

For your current setup, just stick to malted barley mashes.  You will be able to easily lauter then before or after fermentation and the wort will not scorch with your heating elements.  Stay away from rye, corn, and wheat for now.  You can play around with adding them in small percentages (5-10%) to your malted barley mash.  If you want to get creative then create single malt mashes with a couple different kinds of malted barely.  The issue for wheat and rye are the proteins make it through the BIAB and will scorch with the heating element.  Corn's issue is that is doesn't want to let go of any of the water.

Some people had had luck with bringing it up super slow and keeping it constantly agitated until it gets to a boil in the still.  I haven't experimented with that.

If you really want to work with those grains, you may have a luck with something like a T-500 where the heat is somewhat indirect.  The best option is to find a baine marie still or steam jacketed.  From your last post it sounds like you have that coming so good luck!  

I know it's been 6 months since your last post so I am interested to hear an update!

[needmorstuff]

This is for vodka so those grains will have too much flavour.

I have since purchased a baine Marie still and am just waiting for it.

[needmorstuff]

got my new stills now so started 2 x new mashes.

Heated 170l of water to 90c

Added 37.5L of 90c water and 37.5L of 17c water to a vessel (was sanitised with starsan)

Added 50kg of ground wheat (almost to flour) to the vessel

Temp settled at 40c

added 100GM of gypsum

stirred it all up, nice and easy with mixer on drill, no lumps and no dough balls

added water at 90c until total volume of added water was 170L

Temp was at 65c

ph was 6 (using a calibrated meter with temp adjust)

Added 350ML of Murphy and sons trizyme https://www.murphyandson.co.uk/product/trizyme/and 350ml of glucanase https://www.murphyandson.co.uk/product/glucanase/

agitated several times over  90 mins, temp ended at 58c

filtered some liquid through cloth *(the liquid was taken from the top of the mash, maybe I should have mixed it up?)

Iodine test was brown from filtered liquid, but if I dropped a drop directly into the mash it went black 

cooled with submerged coil (that was removed from HLT) to 35c

whilst cooling re-hydrated 70gm of  Llalemand distillamax HT https://lallemanddistilling.com/en/eu/products/distilamax-ht/ in 700ml of boiled cooled water @ 35c for 30 mins

Pitched yeast when wort was 35c

SG was 1060 with temp at 35c

Started well, krausen formed after 24 hours

48 hours in SG 1030, PH 4.2

72 hours SG 1030 PH 4

Krausen dropped

96 hours SG 1030 PH 3.7

ambient temp is 25c

The yeast should work down to 3.5, but I have had stuck sugar washes before due to low PH.

What's changed from my 1st attempt a while back is the enzymes, my location, i'm using SS 304 vessels.

What do we think? raise ph and/or pitch more yeast?

 

Or maybe it didn't fully convert?

I love and hate this in equal measure 😉

[kleclerc77]

What sticks out to me right away is your pitch temp. Even though 35C is within the HT's temp range, you want to start way lower. Think more in the 26C range. You didn't note the ferment's temperature as time went on, which without active cooling I'm sure exceeds the HT's temperature range. Reaching 35C towards the end of the ferment may not be the worst, but starting there is what strikes me as the problem here. 

[needmorstuff]

so do we think that given it's now in the 25c range re-pitching with fresh yeast may get the SG down?

I could try that.

If that fails I am thinking maybe my iodine testing process may be flawed? and conversion didn't fully occur.

[needmorstuff]

plan for today when i get onsite

If it doesn't seem to have an infection.

Check temp, should be in the 25c range as thats ambient

Add more enzymes to the wort.

Add nutrients to the wort

Make a big starter 

Repitch

 

Going forward, maybe look for different enzyme supplier, or go back to llalemand, problem with them in past was short shelf life.

 

[SlickFloss]

Check your PH before rep itching you may just be throwing money down the metaphorical drain

[needmorstuff]

adjusted ph to 4 (maybe should have gone higher)

add more trizyme, add nutrient, rehydrated another 70gm of yeast, added to 20L of wort

starter didn't, well, start.

Dumped the content back in the fermenter last night, 

this morning it was at room temp with no activity

Ran it, got 27L at 30% abv from 280L of wort. Which is about a third of what I expected.

It was a bad conversion, I'm sure of it. The enzyme rep didnt seem massively convincing and the literature don't seem to suggest it is targetted specifically to us.

I can go back and use the llalemand products or I have just had a quote from ferm solutions for their Alapha Amylase and Gluco Amylase. I am a bit reticent to use ferm solutions when i have had success with the llalemand ones before.

[Pofarmer]

What water are you using? Are you treating for Chlorine's and choramines? I was having trouble with stuck mashes before I started using either sodium Nitrate or Campden tablets to blow of the Chlorine and chloramine from district water.