Vodka Column Plates Flooding

[robowop]

Hi Guys,

Just getting into production at my distillery and i have a 600L (around 160 gallon) hybrid still direct from China that i purhcased a few years back, but only recently started running on it.

Knowing what i know now, i don't think i would have ever bought direct from china as the after support is terrible.

That said, I'm stuck with it now, but need the community help please.

My 20 plate column is flooding whenever i try to run vodka and more recently the agitator motor seal started leaking vapor. Because of this i've stopped using it and stopped production.

I've attached pictures hoping that someone out there can help me figure out how to fix the flooding issue and maybe suggest where i could get replacement seals.

I'm located near Toronto, Ontario, but this is a real show stopper for me.  Anything will help! Much appreciated.

Willing to pay for assistance as well.

 

[whiskeytango]

You say plates flooding.  But how give more specific info.  For vodka they are supposed to flood.  I assume you mean more that they are not draining properly then filling up? 

If so where top of column bottom of column?  How much how fast?  Just more detailed info 

 

[robowop]

8 minutes ago, whiskeytango said:

You say plates flooding.  But how give more specific info.  For vodka they are supposed to flood.  I assume you mean more that they are not draining properly then filling up? 

If so where top of column bottom of column?  How much how fast?  Just more detailed info 

 

Hey thanks for the reply - some additional details:

they aren't draining properly - after equalizing the plates under full reflux, the bottom plates (bottom 2 to 3) will fill entirely.  I can only correct this slightly by taking reflux off all together.

It's as if they aren't able to drain to the pot quick enough

[whiskeytango]

1 minute ago, robowop said:

Hey thanks for the reply - some additional details:

they aren't draining properly - after equalizing the plates under full reflux, the bottom plates (bottom 2 to 3) will fill entirely.  I can only correct this slightly by taking reflux off all together.

It's as if they aren't able to drain to the pot quick enough

Send me a picture of the drain tube that goes from the bottom plate to the collection area below where it drains back to the pot. Im betting I have about a 14$ solution (might be more in Canada lol)

[Golden Beaver Distillery]

You could also be over pressurizing your pot with too much agitation.

[robowop]

11 minutes ago, whiskeytango said:

Send me a picture of the drain tube that goes from the bottom plate to the collection area below where it drains back to the pot. Im betting I have about a 14$ solution (might be more in Canada lol)

Hope this help.  I got excited at the idea of this being a $14 dollar fix, or a 200 dollar in canadian dollars haha.

[robowop]

11 minutes ago, Golden Beaver Distillery said:

You could also be over pressurizing your pot with too much agitation.

Typically when i'm running vodka, it's without agitation - however the agitator vapor seal is leaking ONLY when running the vodka column

[Kindred Spirits]

Worst case until you get the seal fixed if not running agitation, you could use some distillers paste (Flour and Water) mixed up to seal around the shaft.

In terms of flooding, in the first picture of the last post you have a capped port, is that a return port? If so you could run individual return lines from each column to allow more flow. 

[robowop]

36 minutes ago, Kindred Spirits said:

Worst case until you get the seal fixed if not running agitation, you could use some distillers paste (Flour and Water) mixed up to seal around the shaft.

In terms of flooding, in the first picture of the last post you have a capped port, is that a return port? If so you could run individual return lines from each column to allow more flow. 

I'll give the paste a shot - i'm running just the single column for the vodka production, but i agree that it seemed like a flow issue.  separating the lines might be a good idea as well. Thanks!

[meerkat]

The setup that the Chinese have supplied to you is "fairly similar" to the standard design supplied by Affordable Distillery Equipment which is run be member @Southernhighlander. If anyone can solve your problem it is him.

My own impression is that the flow problem is likely caused by air locks in the liquid drain piping. Air locks can occur at any high point where air gets trapped and cannot be flushed out. In particular I suspect the "S" traps which have been installed on the outlets of each of the columns.  In many countries these "S" traps are forbidden in the plumbing codes for waste water for exactly this reason. It would be better to use standard "U" traps which eliminate the high points where air collects.

The second likely problem point is the "horizontal" section of the drain pipe from the columns back to the pot. No drain pipe that is gravity driven should ever be horizontal because it is so easy to accidentally get a high spot. Horizontal drains should have a slope of at least 1 % ( 1 inch fall per 100 inches of run).  This is often difficult to rectify after installation without major reconstruction.

The last problem point I have seen is the dip pipe inside the pot. This usually dips down well under the liquid surface to prevent vapor from flowing back up the liquid drain pipe - which would also cause draining issues. However, the dip pipe will be full of air at start up and if the liquid flow down the drain is not high enough it can't flush the air out. The solution is to drill a small hole ( 3mm or 1/8 inch ) in the dip pipe (edit) inside the pot and above the normal liquid level. The small size will prevent a high enough vapor flow to cause problems but will gradually allow any trapped air to escape from the pipe.

Edited November 10, 2022 by meerkat
clarification

[Southernhighlander]

Meerkat has pretty much identified all of the problems. Back when I had my designs built completely by the Chinese, I put several flaws on the drawings that I gave the Chinese such as an S trap instead of a P trap, column condensate return lines that were level instead of down sloping and dip tubes that did not dip.  Once I received the equipment at my shop I had my employees correct the issues.  I put these flaws in to protect my intellectual property.  I knew that the Chinese factories passed design drawings around and I wanted to make it so that when they sold my stolen designs those stills would not work.   These particular flaws were the simplest for me to fix, which is why I chose them.  It appears that the Chinese company that sold Robowap this still, used one of my design drawings.  I apologize for the problems this has caused you Robowop but it was the only way that I could think of to protect myself.  Robowop my email is paul@distillery-equipment.com direct line 417-778-6908  I am glad to help you resolve your issues. 

 

[ViolentBlue]

drop me a PM I'll walk you through setting that seal up correctly.

as for the flooding, I would suggest a pump and float switch instead of the S trap.

 

[Southernhighlander]

Robowop,

 

I'm sorry.   I didn't see the part about the air seal on your agitator until violent blue mentioned it.  If you haven't adjusted it yet you can call 417-778-6100 and ask for Tim.  He is our agitator expert and he will walk you through adjusting your agitator seal.  Concerning your flooding problem.  The advice that meerkat and I gave will solve the problem, however if you would like to pump the condensate I have a kit for that.  We figured out years ago that a tank with a float switch is not needed.  Our kit consists of a pneumatic pump, sight glass hoses and an air regulator.  

[Lisa Hemamo]

Hi There

 

The flooding problem can be solved by adjusting the return flow, but this will reduce the alcohol concentration. From the picture scale, the diameter of the tower column is obviously smaller, so the best solution is to control the flow of heating steam to generate less alcohol steam, but this will prolong the distillation time.

The support and seal of the agitator are obviously too complex. I guess they use mechanical seals (the influence of temperature on the seal needs to be considered), but it is most appropriate to use packing seals here. You'd better provide a detailed photos of the seal.

[Lisa Hemamo]

Actually,I am also a supplier from China, not all supplier from China is not worthy trust.This system i can tell who produced it and their price is much lower .Back to year agao, if i and Your supplier quoted to you, you would still choose them because of price. Also not all chinese supplier not offer good after support, My factory will not let this happen. Also, i am not expecting to sell direct to End-user, i am expect to work with partner is USA.But i am glad to give you a hand on this.

[Southernhighlander]

On 12/8/2022 at 1:01 AM, Lisa Hemamo said:

"The flooding problem can be solved by adjusting the return flow, but this will reduce the alcohol concentration. From the picture scale, the diameter of the tower column is obviously smaller, so the best solution is to control the flow of heating steam to generate less alcohol steam, but this will prolong the distillation time."

 

Lisa,

In this situation, adjusting the return flow will not solve the problem nor will adjusting the heat input.  This still was built by someone who does not know how to design stills.  Due to the incorrect plumbing design, this column will always flood when someone attempts to use it correctly.

Many american companies give Chinese factories designs that will not work so that when the Chinese factories steal their intellectual property and sell it to others, the stills won't work and then the Chinese company does not know how to fix it.  

[whiskeytango]

Hey OP can you post if the fixes worked?

 

 

[Lisa Hemamo]

On 12/10/2022 at 2:16 AM, Southernhighlander said:

Lisa,

In this situation, adjusting the return flow will not solve the problem nor will adjusting the heat input.  This still was built by someone who does not know how to design stills.  Due to the incorrect plumbing design, this column will always flood when someone attempts to use it correctly.

Many american companies give Chinese factories designs that will not work so that when the Chinese factories steal their intellectual property and sell it to others, the stills won't work and then the Chinese company does not know how to fix it.  

In this situation, adjusting the return flow will not solve the problem nor will adjusting the heat input.  This still was built by someone who does not know how to design stills.  Due to the incorrect plumbing design, this column will always flood when someone attempts to use it correctly-- -----Hi Paul ,i agree with your this comments, but last time i dar not to say so,sometimes ,it hurts if you say the truth directly. This still was born with design problem, unless replace tower column,if do so,the experienced engineer must be in place to check and redesign which involve more cost.So the best way for owner is my way to use it.The money already paid, it would be painful not to use it.

The second thing you mentioned, i did not know which company  you were pointing to,so i will not comment this. About my company, i have confidence about our quality and design, and we did not get any design yet from any company yet.

 

[meerkat]

I hope that @robowop will give some feedback here on his results, but I did receive a DM from him saying that the column is no longer flooding although the leaking agitator seal still needs repair.
 
I understand that he made changes external to the column only. @whiskeytango noted that a possible cause of the flooding could be the downcomer from the bottom tray and certainly in my experience the downcomers are far and away the largest cause of internal problems in a column. But it seems that robowop was lucky here and did not need to make internal changes.

[robowop]

Thank you to everyone who provided their insight into my problem.

I ended up making changes to my trap (added 1 large U Trap and removed the S Traps) and added a dip tube as suggested by @meerkatand @Southernhighlander and it drains beautifully now.

[robowop]

@meerkat  @Southernhighlander @whiskeytango

Thank you all so much for your help.  There is a local company near me who also imports these stills - i won't mention their name, but they wouldn't even return my calls.  It is so refreshing to know that this forum is filled with knowledable people who are willing to help!

[Southernhighlander]

3 hours ago, robowop said:

Thank you to everyone who provided their insight into my problem.

I ended up making changes to my trap (added 1 large U Trap and removed the S Traps) and added a dip tube as suggested by @meerkatand @Southernhighlander and it drains beautifully now.

You are welcome.  I'm glad that we could help you.

 

[Southernhighlander]

Robowop.

 

Did you get your agitator to seal?  If not call 417-778-6100 and ask for Tim. He's my employee that handles agitators, among other things, and he will help you get it lined out.

 

[whiskeytango]

10 hours ago, meerkat said:

I hope that @robowop will give some feedback here on his results, but I did receive a DM from him saying that the column is no longer flooding although the leaking agitator seal still needs repair.
 
I understand that he made changes external to the column only. @whiskeytango noted that a possible cause of the flooding could be the downcomer from the bottom tray and certainly in my experience the downcomers are far and away the largest cause of internal problems in a column. But it seems that robowop was lucky here and did not need to make internal changes.

Glad its working,   and that it was an external fix. Without a sight glass in the bottom of the column the downcomers are such a bitch to get to 

[robowop]

2 hours ago, Southernhighlander said:

Robowop.

 

Did you get your agitator to seal?  If not call 417-778-6100 and ask for Tim. He's my employee that handles agitators, among other things, and he will help you get it lined out.

 

@Southernhighlander i did not get to the seal yet - I'll call in the morning, but i don't have the shaft size.  I'll speak to Tim and see what he requires

Thanks!