What's a fair price to buy a whiskey recipe

[Guest Bobcat Hill]

There's a local moonshiner with a generations-old recipe. What would be fair compensation for the recipe?

[Scott @ Twenty2Vodka]

Does generations-old = "quality" or does generations-old = "never been caught". There isn't a table or market for things like this, so there is no proper answer. Even if 100 people reply with answers ranging from $1 to $100,000 and you took the average at say...$6, would you really go offer him $6 if that's what this forum's opinion on the value was?

Personally, it's his experience in setting up a working system that probably has the most value. But browse the forum, and you'll quickly see that setting up is the easy (and fun part). Getting it to the shelves in a profitable way is the tricky bit, something i don't believe your moonshine buddy could offer much legit advice on.

Consult your business plan and weight the cost of the minimum he'll take vs how long you think it will take you to come up with what he'd tell you + 50% to account for the unknowns that always appear. If he can save you real time, then I'd say tap his experience. But the $ number is all on you.

Good Luck,

-Scott

[Wes Henderson]

There's a local moonshiner with a generations-old recipe. What would be fair compensation for the recipe?

IMHO, there is more value in the potential story than the recipe. Quite frankly, however, this story has been mined more than once (Clyde May's Conecuh Ridge, Popcorn Sutton, etc), and unless there is something completely off the hook, I don't see much on the marketing end. With the price points for unaged whiskey, be prepared to sell 50,000 or more cases per year (or more) to make any money...and that is pushing it.

WH

[robertbirnecker]

I understand the discussion if we talk about Gin or Liqueur. For Whiskey... I am not sure if you can call various amounts of grain a recipe. Plus, the different types of a specific grain can really change the flavor. Wheat is a great example for this. In addition, technique can also affect your flavor.

[DrewKulsveen]

I do agree that there may be some potential marketing advantages of doing this but unless he's a famous moonshiner I doubt that having an old recipe will do you any good, especially if he isn't the one who will be in the market to whom people can preach about it. And what gaurantees do you have that this is a real recipe and not something made up to earn a quick buck?

[Denver Distiller]

I understand the discussion if we talk about Gin or Liqueur. For Whiskey... I am not sure if you can call various amounts of grain a recipe. Plus, the different types of a specific grain can really change the flavor. Wheat is a great example for this. In addition, technique can also affect your flavor.

Robert is right. A "recipe" for whiskey is utterly useless. There's no such thing as a generations old recipe, unless you happen to be working at, oh, Buffalo Trace or Beam where they have detailed records about things like yeast types, pitching rates, and their performance. And even then....

A recipe for fermenting and then distilling is a process, not a laundry list.

Here--- want some recipes?

80% corn, 20% malt, boom, there's your corn whiskey

80% rye, 20% malt, boom, there's your rye whiskey

70% corn, 15% rye, 15% malt, boom, there's your bourbon

Want high rye? Ok, 55% corn, 30% rye, 15% malt.

Mash it, ferment it, distill it twice, proof it, put it in a barrel. Adjust all the above to taste.

This and a quarter will buy you a cup of coffee.

Sarcasm aside, I'd prefer that none of you get taken for a worthless piece of paper that has no bearing in your distillery. Save your money for better uses. And heck, half the fun of distilling is DIY. Why let someone else rob you of that pleasure?

[Max Action]

Templeton Rye, Kentucky Fried Chicken, etc. certainly seem to find some marketing value in a "secret" recipe.

[Denver Distiller]

Yes, they do. And neither company had to pay for those "recipes". They just made it up as they went along. Good for them.

And if that's what Bobcat Hill wants to do, good for him, too. I just think he'd be a fool to give someone money for the privilege. He can do it all by himself, and keep his money.

[Tirador]

I'm going to ad my two-cents at this point.

First, a little background. I own one of the largest collections of rare books and papers on distillation in private hands in this country, possibly globally. I buy old documents, recipies and the like on a regular basis and I use them for my own research as a distiller.

What I've found in the many years I've been collecting this material is that it is both invaluable in developing unique hand-crafted products ... and that most of it isn't rocket science. Rather it's more an art, to be practiced by a skilled artisan.

Most of the older recipies and the like are simply lists of ingredients with minimal instructions, designed so that a journeyman distiller (i.e. someone that had been apprenticed either formally or informally) could use those recipies as a guide. It was then up to the distiller to practice the artistry of his (or her) craft to turn that list of ingredients and instructions into a good product. A recipe no matter how good can still produce a bad product is the distiller doens't know what he's doing, or if the ingredients are not suitable for the end product, etc.

This is equally true for gin, liquor and absinthe recipes ... perhaps more so then whiskey.

The other thing you find with these old recipes is that many of them call for either ingredients you DON'T want in a quality product or simply take short-cuts that while not nasty or dangerous, aren't what I would consider suitable for a premium product ...

With the gin and liquor recipies, and with some older brandy and whiskey recipies as well you also find recipies used by "liquor compounders", where they take essences and colorants and blend them with alcohol to get a product that resembles say "Bourbon" or etc.

I regularly see these hand-written recipies (of all types), and will often buy them if the price is right just to see how the distiller put his product together. I'm usually disappointed in that the majority of these are pretty common.

Often, in fact I'd say 80% of the time or more with liquors they've simply been copied out of older books on distilling ... especially the common agricultural encyclopedias published mostly in France in the late 1700s, 1800s and early 1900s, which were full of recipes and basic procedures (Roret, Collection De Nouveaux Manuels, Encyclopedia Agricole, and Enclyclopeie Des Connaissances Agricoles are all examples of these). The reason that most of these were pubished in France is that France was the center of the distilling world from the mid-1500s through around 1900. Even today many books throughout Europe, Asia and the America's on distillation draw heavily on these common sources from France. It was also common for American distillers to own copies of these books (and treat them as high-valued items). In 1777 for example, a common French book on distillation was worth as much as five months of a distiller's salary here in the U.S. Copies of these late 1700s and early 1800s books were commonly held and used by generations of American distillers as regular references at least until prohibition.

One more point on old books and receipes on this subject. The books that were printed in the U.S. or London for export to the colonies from about 1750 through say 1830 are notably different then all these other old books, in that they were designed to be used by someone that was NOT a journeyman distiller. Those have much more practical detail on operating a distillery and the blow-by-blow processes of making basic distilled products (liquors) ... including whiskey (whisky) and apple-jack. Even with this group of books, however, a recipe is still only going to get you so far ...

Now, having said that, and as others have mentioned, if the recipe has a good story that can be used for marketing then by all means pay the man what YOU think that marketing tidbit is worth ... NOTHING MORE.

Oh, and if you ask real nice maybe I'll scan a couple recipes for you ... say pretty please.

Just my two cents.

S.

[Tirador]

Robert is right. A "recipe" for whiskey is utterly useless. There's no such thing as a generations old recipe, unless you happen to be working at, oh, Buffalo Trace or Beam where they have detailed records about things like yeast types, pitching rates, and their performance. And even then....

A recipe for fermenting and then distilling is a process, not a laundry list.

Here--- want some recipes?

80% corn, 20% malt, boom, there's your corn whiskey

80% rye, 20% malt, boom, there's your rye whiskey

70% corn, 15% rye, 15% malt, boom, there's your bourbon

Want high rye? Ok, 55% corn, 30% rye, 15% malt.

Mash it, ferment it, distill it twice, proof it, put it in a barrel. Adjust all the above to taste.

This and a quarter will buy you a cup of coffee.

Sarcasm aside, I'd prefer that none of you get taken for a worthless piece of paper that has no bearing in your distillery. Save your money for better uses. And heck, half the fun of distilling is DIY. Why let someone else rob you of that pleasure?

Where can I get a cup of coffee for a quarter??? Heck, I'll meet you there!

S.

[Beauport Bob]

At first this sounded like a trap question. But let's play along. I believe when you "Buy" a recipe you are actually buying the license to produce using that recipe. Gone are the days of a straight transaction. You legally will need to protect yourself should your product become a phenomenal sensation. So, just for fun, ask this person for what you will need to sell this product. All the legal items. Does it meet 'Standard of Identity" for TTB approval or is there a secret ingrediant that FDA may not like? Will he sign away complete rights for the recipe and can he guarentee no other person is using a similar recipe? Does he have the economic means to protect that fact and willing to go to court to enforce a tresspass. The marketing, will he sign away the "Family" story, images, etc. Above all, does he have the right to sell or will cousin Zeb come out of the dark? Does he have evidence of a quality product? What is you recourse if it actually doesn't taste good? Samples: Stating it's better than "Jack" will not do. Dumping a bottle of "Dickle" into a mason jar and calling it his will not do. Etc, etc, The Still, his backyard still and yours will not produce the same. Will he gurantee an economic clause. That you can make it efficiently? (Translate that to making money). Does he have the assets to cover your investment as agreed should his part fail? Always look at the rainy days, not just the sunny ones in negotiating a transaction.

My point, You really do not know how much a favor to yourself you are doing buy creating your own recipe. Have fun doing it!

Cheers, Bob

[cowdery]

Steve Martin had a joke that seems appropriate here. "It's easy to become a millionaire. First, get a million dollars."

The original poster, who has only made three posts here, could be coming from many different directions. Because most of the people here are nicer than me, they took the query at face value and gave honest and considered responses.

I would say the first step in due diligence would be to taste the guy's liquor.

Funny the mention of Templeton's "secret" recipe. Templeton's secret recipe is LDI's phone number.

[Guest Bobcat Hill]

Barrels of thanks to all of you. A multitude of good points were raised through this discussion. In fact, you helped identify other considerations that had not bleeped on my radar yet. Thanks again.

[qntssence]

Robert is right. A "recipe" for whiskey is utterly useless. There's no such thing as a generations old recipe, unless you happen to be working at, oh, Buffalo Trace or Beam where they have detailed records about things like yeast types, pitching rates, and their performance. And even then....

A recipe for fermenting and then distilling is a process, not a laundry list.

Here--- want some recipes?

80% corn, 20% malt, boom, there's your corn whiskey

80% rye, 20% malt, boom, there's your rye whiskey

70% corn, 15% rye, 15% malt, boom, there's your bourbon

Want high rye? Ok, 55% corn, 30% rye, 15% malt.

Mash it, ferment it, distill it twice, proof it, put it in a barrel. Adjust all the above to taste.

This and a quarter will buy you a cup of coffee.

Sarcasm aside, I'd prefer that none of you get taken for a worthless piece of paper that has no bearing in your distillery. Save your money for better uses. And heck, half the fun of distilling is DIY. Why let someone else rob you of that pleasure?

ok, ok , I felt that a reply was needed for this particular response. It made me laugh three times in the first recipe delivered alone(I enjoy sarcasm in all forms). As for the original question posed as to what a recipe should cost.....have you thought about sitting down over coffee or another fine social beverage and just "got to know" an individual that might have the particular information you would like to learn? Remember, talking to people and giving your time can yield more than any dollar amount at times. The ingredients are fun to look at, but you have to understand the "procedure" that the original distiller puts into effect. As an example...

My grandmother made the best chili I have ever tasted, and when I finally got the 3 ft long piece of paper that the recipe was on, I realized quite quickly there was a bit of a learning curve involved to "recreating" her methods.

My advice is to find a good "homebrew" club near where you live and just start hanging out with them. Those groups are a WEALTH of information on all grain techniques.

Nate

[Red Rover]

Tirador, I came across your post and by the end of this, will say pretty please.....

I have a recipe for whiskey I have created myself, from proven recipes I have 'tweaked' and 're-tweaked' and so on. I am like you, in that I may aquire parts of a recipe and log it into a binder, and fall back into the binder when I feel like experimenting. Well, I have had the itch to find other whiskey recipes and 'modify' a few and see what I get create. Looks like with a small amount of persuation you may be willing to let loose of some information.......Pretty Please would you be willing to send something for me to play with???

I'm going to ad my two-cents at this point.

First, a little background. I own one of the largest collections of rare books and papers on distillation in private hands in this country, possibly globally. I buy old documents, recipies and the like on a regular basis and I use them for my own research as a distiller.

What I've found in the many years I've been collecting this material is that it is both invaluable in developing unique hand-crafted products ... and that most of it isn't rocket science. Rather it's more an art, to be practiced by a skilled artisan.

Most of the older recipies and the like are simply lists of ingredients with minimal instructions, designed so that a journeyman distiller (i.e. someone that had been apprenticed either formally or informally) could use those recipies as a guide. It was then up to the distiller to practice the artistry of his (or her) craft to turn that list of ingredients and instructions into a good product. A recipe no matter how good can still produce a bad product is the distiller doens't know what he's doing, or if the ingredients are not suitable for the end product, etc.

This is equally true for gin, liquor and absinthe recipes ... perhaps more so then whiskey.

The other thing you find with these old recipes is that many of them call for either ingredients you DON'T want in a quality product or simply take short-cuts that while not nasty or dangerous, aren't what I would consider suitable for a premium product ...

With the gin and liquor recipies, and with some older brandy and whiskey recipies as well you also find recipies used by "liquor compounders", where they take essences and colorants and blend them with alcohol to get a product that resembles say "Bourbon" or etc.

I regularly see these hand-written recipies (of all types), and will often buy them if the price is right just to see how the distiller put his product together. I'm usually disappointed in that the majority of these are pretty common.

Often, in fact I'd say 80% of the time or more with liquors they've simply been copied out of older books on distilling ... especially the common agricultural encyclopedias published mostly in France in the late 1700s, 1800s and early 1900s, which were full of recipes and basic procedures (Roret, Collection De Nouveaux Manuels, Encyclopedia Agricole, and Enclyclopeie Des Connaissances Agricoles are all examples of these). The reason that most of these were pubished in France is that France was the center of the distilling world from the mid-1500s through around 1900. Even today many books throughout Europe, Asia and the America's on distillation draw heavily on these common sources from France. It was also common for American distillers to own copies of these books (and treat them as high-valued items). In 1777 for example, a common French book on distillation was worth as much as five months of a distiller's salary here in the U.S. Copies of these late 1700s and early 1800s books were commonly held and used by generations of American distillers as regular references at least until prohibition.

One more point on old books and receipes on this subject. The books that were printed in the U.S. or London for export to the colonies from about 1750 through say 1830 are notably different then all these other old books, in that they were designed to be used by someone that was NOT a journeyman distiller. Those have much more practical detail on operating a distillery and the blow-by-blow processes of making basic distilled products (liquors) ... including whiskey (whisky) and apple-jack. Even with this group of books, however, a recipe is still only going to get you so far ...

Now, having said that, and as others have mentioned, if the recipe has a good story that can be used for marketing then by all means pay the man what YOU think that marketing tidbit is worth ... NOTHING MORE.

Oh, and if you ask real nice maybe I'll scan a couple recipes for you ... say pretty please.

Just my two cents.

S.