Yeild of Alcohol

[Brian]

Lactic Acid Bacteria.

The attack strategy of LAB is two fold: consuming your substrate and acidifying the mash to make it toxic for yeast...the game is to generate the ethanol and then let the LAB make their critical contribution.

If the war plan runs the other way and the LAB get an early foothold from some goop left somewhere in your system they can out compete the yeast or covert your precious ethanol to acetic acid...some LAB generates some very nice cogeners...we are making whiskey here not beer and wine. At 85F, you are in the sweet spot for LAB and north of the sweet spot for the yeasties...nice paper on this battle came out of Suntory if memory serves...send me a PM and I will send you the PDF when I am back in civilization...

[coop]

Well it is official, I have a LAB infection, will start this week on decontamination process. We are small so it will only take us one day. Todd, I ordered the Lodopen from 5 star this morning. I will be cleaning everything, hoses, gaskets, fittings inside and out. I will also do the mash kettle however I am wondering since I heat with direct steam injection into the wash and if LAB is coming in on the grain should not the wash be sterile after cooking? and is carried air born as we grind all our grains? If not would it do any good to sterilize the grinder also? Thanks to all of you for all your help in this matter, Coop

[Beauport Bob]

Brian, I thank you also for the info. Good luck Coop.

[Brian]

The bacteria will remain no matter what you do and you want them there you just need to manage the infection. The fermenters and chillers, if any, need a blast of disinfectant and you'll be back doing your spiritual work. Can't remember what we use but try to find something that leaves no residue after it runs it's course. If you don't already, make sure your hoses drain out over night instead of leaving fertile loops...

[coop]

Thank you all again. The Lodopen That Todd/Denver Distiller uses leaves no residual disinfectant so that should be here by Thursday then back at it Friday. Should be done running out last two tanks by then and get all the alcohol out I can. Coop

[cowdery]

There have been many contributions to this thread. Could all of the possibilities suggested account for a loss of half of his yield. That just seems huge and probably not attributable to a little grit in the joints. Or am I wrong? Is yield that precarious?

[will]

Chuck,

The guys who make Kombucha claim that they balance the activity of the yeast and LAB organisms so that during fermentation and conversion, the ABV never goes above 0.5%, and in this way, they avoid having to get a Basic Permit for brewing or wine making operations. I tested a batch or two when the big flap started a few months back. We burned it in the glass still, and checked it with the waste hydrometer. It really was below 0.5%, so in that instance, almost all of the EtOH was converted to some acid or another.

I'm looking forward to hearing more about what Coop learns. I hope he can share some of the evidence and methods he used to determine that it's LAB, where it came from, and how he plans to manage it in the future.

Let's keep this thread moving ahead,

Will

[PeteB]

Good discussion on this thread

Coop, now you know the problem, were there any other symptoms other than low yield?

[PeteB]

Will, you mentioned a glass still, as I did earlier in this thread.

After I posted i started to wonder if this would give the correct amount of alcohol. Would the acid not be in the condensate as well.

I have not used one but I was given a lesson some time ago so I won't confuse everyone by trying to explain how they work!

Don't these stills remove solids only, or is yours set up differently.

Can you please describe to me and others how they work. I might have to invest in one.

[Denver Distiller]

There have been many contributions to this thread. Could all of the possibilities suggested account for a loss of half of his yield. That just seems huge and probably not attributable to a little grit in the joints. Or am I wrong?

No, you're not wrong. Given the information shared by coop, it simply does not make sense that a lactobacillus infection would be so severe that it would cut his yield in half without coop noticing severe visual and aromatic changes in the fermentation, among other cues, which he as told us are the same as normal. And his terminal gravity sure as heck wouldn't cut out at 5 Plato.

[Brian]

Well LAB can proliferate to a very high level and if Coop developed a very nice colony he could have severe losses...the new grain could also be contaminated with bacteria and the yeast though active could be terminated early...we have calculated we routinely loose about 10% of our yield to LAB and the intentional addition of certain LAB strains to spirit (and wine) fermentations would tend not to support your thesis...

[PeteB]

[*]8' post='11000']

No, you're not wrong. Given the information shared by coop, it simply does not make sense that a lactobacillus infection would be so severe that it would cut his yield in half without coop noticing severe visual and aromatic changes in the fermentation, among other cues, which he as told us are the same as normal. And his terminal gravity sure as heck wouldn't cut out at 5 Plato.

Coop said " brix goes from 15 down to 5. Coop" ie. BRIX, By my understanding Brix and Plato are not necessarily equivalent.

Has anyone who uses a REFRACTOMETER had final BRIX readings much below 5 ?

I don't think it can go much lower because the refractometer starts reading alcohol and/or acid instead of sugar. (unless you have turned sugar into water)

Just to make my point,yesterday I put a drop of 44%abv on my refractometer and it read approx 17 brix, I assure you there was no sugar present.

[Denver Distiller]

Well LAB can proliferate to a very high level and if Coop developed a very nice colony he could have severe losses...the new grain could also be contaminated with bacteria and the yeast though active could be terminated early...we have calculated we routinely loose about 10% of our yield to LAB and the intentional addition of certain LAB strains to spirit (and wine) fermentations would tend not to support your thesis...

I'm not trying to be difficult here, and yes, it is indeed possible for lacto to do precisely what you described. What doesn't make any sense to me is that Coop described that he saw a typical fermentation that took 4-6 days, that by his account appeared to be normal.

If he had an infection that was so severe that it wiped out 1/2 his yield and he didn't notice any changes, he should quit distilling and become a shepherd or something, because the smell of that infection would fill his entire distillery. If he tasted this mash, it would make his eyes water from the tartness. I cannot fathom how he wouldn't notice the difference.

I let lacto peform a secondary fermentation on the scaps of dextrins left after my saccharomyces strains do their thing, and I can smell the difference of that lactic acid standing 20 feet away from the fermenter. I've never lost yield to lactobacillus in 15 years of brewing and distilling. If we were talking about a couple of percentage points, hey, fine, that makes sense.

But he described losing half his yield by bringing in new corn that he brought to a boil. To me, it sounds like either his fermentation is hung and his instruments are misreading, or the corn doesn't have the starch levels that he thinks it does.

Just trying to help. Not trying to be difficult. And I'm enjoying the the conversation here.

[Denver Distiller]

Btw, in case it's somehow not patently obvious..... I don't think that you should become a shepherd, Coop!!

[Brian]

I would agree that the losses are very high. There is much conspiring against Coop here, new grain, higher temps and the like. Coming from a beer background, you probably have protocols that a none beer guy like me might not think of...that you with sterile (beer) background use naturally while my "procedures" you would find laughable...I had a beer head apprentice for me that was appaulled by our "procedures". Reading the Priest article is enlightening since what I take away is a very different point of view from the world of a sterile or pasteurized product. I wish my nose would detect what you nose does...here is the link. http://www.sgm.ac.uk/pubs/micro_today/pdf/020408.pdf. LOTS of interesting stuff here...follow the references, too....it is a huge game changing article! Once you find an article like this you can cast a web through all the links back to other published papers...other areas I am interested in include the yeast genome...if this sort of track excites you, you should head over to the international show in Scotland mid-Sept.

[coop]

Hey I am back. When I started this thread I was just finishing up my 4th fermentation tank and the first one was finishing up. So my comment about everything appearing normal at that time was correct. As you all know I have been very very busy figuring out what was wrong and checking out all the information you all gave me. This does take some time. You have to systematically eliminate possibilities before simply jumping off a bridge.

My fermentation's were not near as clear after settling out. There became a sour taste to the liquid and grain. Instruments were checked for calibration, ok there. I listened to all that you all said and went on line to do more checking. There I found many articles on LAB. During WW2 and later on with the ethanol productions and this became a big problem and entire ethanol plants had to be shut down do to LAB infections.

Yes some LAB is necessary and always their but not in excess. Under the right conditions it will bloom very quickly and disrupt fermentation to the point where great loses occur. Simple things can be done to control this. Things I was taking for granted as we were moving along quite well. The perfect storm you might say. I will not know for sure for a week to week and a half as the new requirements will have to have time to work. I will be emptying my last tank in to the still in a couple days, then we start again. Thanks again for all your help and I will keep you updated. Coop

[coop]

Hey I am back. When I started this thread I was just finishing up my 4th fermentation tank and the first one was finishing up. So my comment about everything appearing normal at that time was correct. As you all know I have been very very busy figuring out what was wrong and checking out all the information you all gave me. This does take some time. You have to systematically eliminate possibilities before simply jumping off a bridge.

My fermentation's were not near as clear after settling out. There became a sour taste to the liquid and grain. Instruments were checked for calibration, ok there. I listened to all that you all said and went on line to do more checking. There I found many articles on LAB. During WW2 and later on with the ethanol productions and this became a big problem and entire ethanol plants had to be shut down do to LAB infections.

Yes some LAB is necessary and always their but not in excess. Under the right conditions it will bloom very quickly and disrupt fermentation to the point where great loses occur. Simple things can be done to control this. Things I was taking for granted as we were moving along quite well. The perfect storm you might say. I will not know for sure for a week to week and a half as the new requirements will have to have time to work. I will be emptying my last tank in to the still in a couple days, then we start again. Thanks again for all your help and I will keep you updated. Coop

[Denver Distiller]

Coming from a beer background, you probably have protocols that a none beer guy like me might not think of...that you with sterile (beer) background use naturally while my "procedures" you would find laughable...I had a beer head apprentice for me that was appaulled by our "procedures".

That's exactly the issue. I'm used to producing lager beer where if you have even the smallest infection, the beer is ruined from the slight offlavors. I'm coming at production from a totally different perspective.

I recall sitting in on a seminar at Alltech in KY many moons ago with a fellow Siebel grad and current board member for the Craft Brewers Association. The lecturer was talking about sanitation at fuel ethanol plants, and when it came time to discuss plate counts (for those who don't know, the amount of bacteria counted in a hemacytometer), the numbers were so off the charts from a brewing perspective that the fellow brewer and eye kept exchanging confused glances until I finally stopped the lecture to ask if the numbers were typos. The notion of getting an infection that's so bad that it eats into yield is completely foreign to me.

[Denver Distiller]

Oh, and Coop, if you don't mind some unasked for advice, I'd clean each fermenter and anything that touches your mash with caustic first, then acid. Disassemble anything that can be disassembled. Recycle all of your gaskets and replace them with new ones. I'd also take apart your pump and visually inspect for dead spots. Same goes for your air lines and filters if you aerate your mash. Use the best light source you can to inspect every nook and cranny. If you have a cold liquor tank or hot liquor tank, clean those tanks out, too. Check your water treatment system and filters. Visually inspect, and smell and taste everything. Make sure there is no evidence of soil on the stainless surfaces, since you can't sanitize if there's soil on those surfaces. Soil hides bacteria.

Then, I'd heat water in your still to just under boiling, and pump it to all the fermenters in your shop. Be careful to avoid vacuum and pressure in your tanks and pipes as the hot water moves in and eventually out. This is the most thorough way to sanitize your tanks outside of live steam, which may be less practical to accomplish. Make sure that you can read the temp of the water and you're looking good if the water is north of 180 F, but higher is better. Confirm with a thermometer that the water is hot enough at every point in the process, otherwise, it's pointless.

Double check your hose bands and fittings to ensure that they are secure as water that hot can pull hose barbs off in a hurry.

Drain the hot water, rinse thoroughly, and sanitize with the iodphor I spoke of.

Then check anything and everything that comes into contact with your grain. Grist case, scales, pails, mills. Disassemble where you can. Smell and taste everything in your plant. Again, use good lighting.

And last but not least, take a real close look at your yeast handling procedures. The easiest way for a lacto infection to take hold is for your culture yeast to be in a weakened state. Do everything you can to ensure your yeast is healthy, clean, and viable.

And on second thought, you might want to check with some of your area's vineyards, as they may have portable steam generators on hand that could steam sterilize everything for you in no time.

Hope this helps. Cheers

[Beauport Bob]

With all the above, a couple of years ago I got a C.I.P. cart. It lessens the exposure to accidental contact with the chem's. It creates a secure loop. Heats water to above 180 easily. I feel confident you have the skill to make one. Gotta go help with our 4th July parades Float now.

[Denver Distiller]

And if you have a cip tank already, coop, be sure to drain clean, and sanitize those as well by boiling water in them. If you let recycled caustic cool, believe it or not, it's a lovely medium for bacteria.

Happy 4th everyone

[Beauport Bob]

D.D., thanks. I did not realize that. , Bob

[Denver Distiller]

I recall talking to a Canadian brewer many moons ago about trying to source out an infection in their plant, and they found living bacteria in their 2% caustic CIP tank that was at 80 C at all times. Pretty unreal. If I recall correctly, it was some nasty strain of Acetobacter. I didn't think that that was possible until I heard the story. Bacteria are tough little buggers.

All those soils that the caustic cleans off will have nitrogen, protein, dead yeast, and usually some sugar. Everything a growing bacterium needs. Drop the caustic temperature down to room temp, and off they'll go.

You're welcome, BB.

[PeteB]

"2%caustic"-- I assume that is caustic soda, Sodium Hydroxide ? Just asking because I thought USA called it Lye.

Is 2% the usual concentration?

PeteB

[Denver Distiller]

This was a conversation I had with an old timer way back in 1995. He was talking about raw caustic used to clean returned bottles, and yes, 2% was the usual for sodium hydroxide used for that task. These days there tends to be more additives (sequestrants, surfactants, etc.), so the recommended concentrations will vary between manufacturers. I remember the details because I was so shocked that the bacteria lived in such a ridiculously harsh environment.