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Time to budget for permitting


Andrew

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This is an awkward question because state/local will be so variable, but:

Is there a good rule of thumb for the amount of time to budget for getting permits - from federal to local - for a small DSP?

TTB's stated target is 60 days from receipt of a perfected app, and recent articles on micro-distilleries mention 18 month to 2 years of permitting. I'm in the process of doing my homework on this disparity as well as state/local requirements and contacts for my area. While I figure things out more accurately, I was wondering if there was a "general" time expectation useful to plug into a business plan.

Regards,

Andrew

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This is an awkward question because state/local will be so variable, but:

Is there a good rule of thumb for the amount of time to budget for getting permits - from federal to local - for a small DSP?

TTB's stated target is 60 days from receipt of a perfected app, and recent articles on micro-distilleries mention 18 month to 2 years of permitting. I'm in the process of doing my homework on this disparity as well as state/local requirements and contacts for my area. While I figure things out more accurately, I was wondering if there was a "general" time expectation useful to plug into a business plan.

Regards,

Andrew

Took us 18 months to get planned. permitted, and open.

Don Poffenroth

Dry Fly Distilling

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This is an awkward question because state/local will be so variable, but:

Is there a good rule of thumb for the amount of time to budget for getting permits - from federal to local - for a small DSP?

TTB's stated target is 60 days from receipt of a perfected app, and recent articles on micro-distilleries mention 18 month to 2 years of permitting. I'm in the process of doing my homework on this disparity as well as state/local requirements and contacts for my area. While I figure things out more accurately, I was wondering if there was a "general" time expectation useful to plug into a business plan.

Regards,

Andrew

Andrew, welcome to the board! Here's my timeline-

After a year of research, I ordered my still in Dec 2004, needed a place to install it so I rented space in January 2005. While waiting for equipment to arrive, I did the buildout and started dealing with the local goverment issues- occupancy, inspections, etc... Not sure where you are but I can tell you that here when you mention you want to open a distillery most people in local government picture a fuel refinery and it scares the heck out of them- they try to find a lot of reasons why you can't open one. Be vigilant.

I submitted my application in Dec 2005 and we had our first field inspection in March 2006, had a few changes to make (plant security issues) re-inspected in April 2006 and had the federal permit in May (I think). My state permit took another month, we spent some time doing test batches, submitting and resubmitting label approval applications and finally began selling product in September 2006. Now, the TTB won't inspect until you have your distillery ready to go- equipment set up, buildout, etc... so while it may only take 60 days for them to get to your application you will likely spend a lot of time in preparation. All in all took me about 20 months not including time spent researching beforehand.

Good luck and keep us informed of your progress.

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Good luck and keep us informed of your progress.

Guy-

Thank you very much, especially for the details. Evolving my initial wild-ass guesses to educated estimates is comforting.

Regards,

Andrew

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From our permit experience, it seems to depend on where you are located and you're past distilling industry experience. After about a month of back and forth over the bonds/application we had a perfected application. Then it only took them about 60 days and they did not come out and do any inspections. Our state was quick as they had seen one other distillery before us. I understand that another winery in our state took closer to 18 months to get their DSP permit and had many inspections. So I think our short application was an anomaly and would allow much more.

Cheers,

Keith

Sweetgrass Winery & Distillery

Union Maine

backrivergin.com

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From our permit experience, it seems to depend on where you are located and you're past distilling industry experience. After about a month of back and forth over the bonds/application we had a perfected application. Then it only took them about 60 days and they did not come out and do any inspections. Our state was quick as they had seen one other distillery before us. I understand that another winery in our state took closer to 18 months to get their DSP permit and had many inspections. So I think our short application was an anomaly and would allow much more.

Thanks much, and good to know. If you find a way to bottle some of that good luck, I'd buy.

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  • 4 weeks later...

We ordered our equipment in July of 05, recieved the keys to our building Nov 1st of '05, submitted our application as soon as we had our keys in hand, recieved our Fed permit Dec 28 '05. Have all your ducks in a row, and do your homework on the regs & your equipment. I also recieved a state and federal inspection during this time. So if anyone tells you it is not possible, let me assure you that it is.

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Is it possible any of you who have been through this gamut could give us a "down-n-dirty" synopsis of what happened during the actual Federal inspection? Questions asked by the Feds, what they wanted as "major equipment" (I get a different answer from each person I talk to at the TTB), what did they look at, etc.

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Is it possible any of you who have been through this gamut could give us a "down-n-dirty" synopsis of what happened during the actual Federal inspection? Questions asked by the Feds, what they wanted as "major equipment" (I get a different answer from each person I talk to at the TTB), what did they look at, etc.

We ordered our still 7/20/07, started our remodel and applications on 9/15/2007. Filed for both Federal an State on 10/10/2007.

We received our state lic on11/03/2007 and our federal on 01/06/2008. We took delivery of still on 12/20 /2007 had it installed two days later. Had our certificate of occupation on 01/06/2007. Our town did not charge us or require us to purchase a liquor license so all we have to pay is a $30.00 business license.

Our only real problem thought the entire process has been bottles. We are working with a Saver glass bottle Axel style and what a nightmare. Not so much with Saver as with the middle man, mainly Tri-Core Braun. They have screwed us to death ever since we started working with them. We ordered bottles in September and have yet to receive all of our order. First Tri-Cor failed to verify with Saver our order, We kept calling Tri-Cor for two months and they would not return our calls. When we finely by threating to cancel our order we got a call back. We were given all kinds of excuses you name it we got it. It was all Savers fault until we told him we were in contact with Saver and Tri Core was the blame. Then Tri Core demanded after all our complaining a C.O.D on bottles, claiming they got no responses from credit applications. What a joke as I for one filled one out myself and faxed it in as well as our local bank. What really happened is they lost all the replys. They seam to thank they have us over a barrel but I know otherwise. We no doubt will have our own molds made and bottles produced in Mexico. Great savings on freight and bottle cost. It is amazing to me we are the only ones in the world using this bottle as their never is any in stock. coop

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  • 1 year later...

We ordered our still 7/20/07, started our remodel and applications on 9/15/2007. Filed for both Federal an State on 10/10/2007.

We received our state lic on11/03/2007 and our federal on 01/06/2008. We took delivery of still on 12/20 /2007 had it installed two days later. Had our certificate of occupation on 01/06/2007. Our town did not charge us or require us to purchase a liquor license so all we have to pay is a $30.00 business license.

Hi Coop- Couple quick questions...

So you received your state license before you had the still in? Also you received your state before your Federal?? How was that possible? Just wondering because I was under the impression you had to get Federal first and that to get Federal that you needed your still in, up and running. Thanks

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Hi Coop- Couple quick questions...

So you received your state license before you had the still in? Also you received your state before your Federal?? How was that possible? Just wondering because I was under the impression you had to get Federal first and that to get Federal that you needed your still in, up and running. Thanks

There are 50 states in the union, each one has different laws. When submitting for federal license it had to include a precise drawing showing everything including all sizes makes and models of all equipment. We did not deviate from those drawings up to and including bonded area and retail store area. The state license needed a federal license number for the application true. In that spot I just wrote in pending. The state knowing I could not produce a drop with out federal license just went ahead with the paper work on their own. The worse thing the state would do is deny application until federal permit was issued. Nothing for me to loose but time. The federal government and state government want you in business ASAP. The sooner you are producing the sooner they collect the taxes. They are your friends most trouble will come from local governments city or county.

Coop

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There are 50 states in the union, each one has different laws. When submitting for federal license it had to include a precise drawing showing everything including all sizes makes and models of all equipment. We did not deviate from those drawings up to and including bonded area and retail store area. The state license needed a federal license number for the application true. In that spot I just wrote in pending. The state knowing I could not produce a drop with out federal license just went ahead with the paper work on their own. The worse thing the state would do is deny application until federal permit was issued. Nothing for me to loose but time. The federal government and state government want you in business ASAP. The sooner you are producing the sooner they collect the taxes. They are your friends most trouble will come from local governments city or county.

Coop

Cool...thanks alot Coop

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  • 2 weeks later...

There are 50 states in the union, each one has different laws. When submitting for federal license it had to include a precise drawing showing everything including all sizes makes and models of all equipment. We did not deviate from those drawings up to and including bonded area and retail store area. The state license needed a federal license number for the application true. In that spot I just wrote in pending. The state knowing I could not produce a drop with out federal license just went ahead with the paper work on their own. The worse thing the state would do is deny application until federal permit was issued. Nothing for me to loose but time. The federal government and state government want you in business ASAP. The sooner you are producing the sooner they collect the taxes. They are your friends most trouble will come from local governments city or county.

Coop

Very helpful and sure makes alot of since. Mark

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Well, let's see if I can remember our time lines without my docs in front of me.

We started pondering the idea of a distillery in early 2007, did a lot of serious research. I had past distilling knowledge learned from my parents (since I was about 3 feet tall) and everything I learned after that made a lot of sense from what the elders had been teaching me. I drew up a business plan and thought it looked good. Then it became an ongoing evolving business plan and we've learned to make it fit and evolve with any situation (I think? We'll see). We incorporated in Feb 2008 and started ordering equipment until both my brother and my garage were full.

In between, we met with a lot of city people who had no idea of what to make of me. But as I had come off as knowledgeable in their eyes, they ran with it and didn't give me much grief. We found our building and were suppose to move in May 2008. Construction delays caused the move in to get pushed back until Sept 2008. We moved our equipment in and installed what needed to be installed. Sent in the Fed App in Oct 2008 and due to minor errors on the app, a Zip Code error on the bond and I believe the holidays, we didn't get our Fed App approved until after Christmas. Our state app took close to three months because our local ABC did not have any experience with a Distiller plus they made me drop one of my partners.

Then came developing, formulas and COLA's. Add two months or so. Awaiting final shipments of packaging. Add a month. Total time is about two years from idea to operation. Currently dealing with distributors who I've been planting the seed with the whole way. Most of which, had forgotten about me. So much for planting the seed.

Good luck.

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