Invasion of Chinese boilers and stills

[akerth]

First off, I am new on this site, however I have watched these threads and perused manufacturers sites for years as I have developed my business plan:

My post title is the preface to my questions:

1. Why does it seem that all of the sudden there is an influx of Chinese made boilers and other still equipment on the market. If you look on Alibaba you can find hundreds of resellers and manufacturers with the exact products that some of the garage shop distillery design and fabrication houses in the US are selling these days.

2. Who is using these items commercially? are they producing award winning product? OR are they just a way for enterprising individuals to import a substandard, low quality product from China and sell it to starry eyed entrepreneurs or hobbyists looking for an inexpensive way to go commercial?

I mean no disrespect to the people who are trying to make a living and have a legitimate product capable of producing high quality spirits, but that said: I live in Portland, Oregon, travel to Southern CA every month and have toured 30+ distilleries in the last 3 years and not a single one of these successful award winning distilleries has one of these designs. I see primarily Holstien and Carl, and a few customs that are almost identical clones to the Carl and Holstien stills. these are very high quality and expensive units, but the results seam to speak for themselves.

Anyhow, I in the process of ordering my equipment, I have quotes and package pricing from both Carl and Kothe (Holstien) and am leaning that direction, however it isn't too late to prove to me that these other items are decent and worth a look. There is one member on this forum that is selling a 60 gallon still package for roughly $35-$40K that is based on one of these Chinese boilers and the supporting accessories that would be worth a look if there were some end users that have excellent results to boast about.

Would love to hear everyone's thoughts

[Mash]

Then you most likely be happiest with the Carl or Vendom, or what ever the most expensive is. I not gonna try to convince you to change your mind. My future award winning spirits, are made with a high quality Artisan Still Design still. The STILL is the least important part, it's the Mash.

A simple pot still has been making award winning spirits for generations. Crappy cuts, crappy mash make a crappy spirit, regardless of distillation vessel.

[grehorst]

I think you put too much stock in still manufacture. It's really quite simple, it's a vessel to boil alcohol off a mash. If well designed there is no reason to believe it wouldn't be able to create award winning spirits. We distill "award winning" spirits on our Holstein but I have no doubt we could do it on one of the Chinese stills too. As for why there is an influx, check with the German companies you mentioned- last I heard they are quoting 8 months plus lead times to get their equipment...

[bioviper]

yeah we got some pretty old beatup stills for around 25,000 for a 100 gal stripping still and a 35 gal spirit still and we have had people in the whisky world say that are white dog is the best they have ever had . so like they said the still is just a instrument but the musician does the real work

[Artisan Still Design]

I'm probably one of the Suppliers you're referring to. While our equipment is manufactured by a factory in China its designed by me and built to our specifications.

as much as I would love to build in US or Canada, its just not possible economically. we do much of our prototyping here and costs are literally 10x on most components.

Yes there are a lot of manufacturers you can purchase from on Alibaba, our products are not offered there, and you deal with us directly for any warranty issues.

While it may seem like splitting Hairs, our stills are Manufactured in China, but are not Cheap Chinese stills.

I can put you in touch with real distillers that are running our equipment for daily production.

Steve

[MG Thermal Consulting]

Steve,

I was just curious, do the Chinese outfits you use supply the "MIL Certs" for the materials used for manufacture?

I have heard of the problems with the Chinese not being able to provide certs or equally worse, providing counterfeit certs.

Mike

[Artisan Still Design]

all our equipment is tested by FDA for compliance on entry.

[Rich Morgan]

Interesting, they have been prevented from importing them into Australia, as they do not meet our engineering standards. Its not that we are super strict in Oz, we mainly follow the British standards, but the Chinese suppliers are unable to prove compliance with regarding testing. They provide all sorts of certificates from various Chinese Certification Organisations, that just do not have international standing.

Be careful, boiler failure is often a bad thing :-)

[MG Thermal Consulting]

I agree with Richard.

FDA is not the same as ASME or has anything to do with construction or material integrity.

Personally, I would have a tough time putting a product out there without testing it to ASME standards.

I can see UL or CSA getting involved sooner or later and then the s*** will hit the fan.

[PeteB]

Are we talking about pressure vessels as in steam generating boilers, or stills running at at close to atmospheric pressure?

If it is low to zero pressure then what certificates are needed, it obviously depends on the importing country.

A "MIL Certs" for the materials used for manufacture might give peace of mind to the purchaser, but is it essential?

[Swede]

There's a lot of fearmongering going on regarding necessary certification by a body that has no legal power to make standards mandatory. Many people forget that CSA and UL are not for profit organizations that simply confirm that products adhere to certian standards. Whether or not those standards are required or mandatory falls to state or provincial regulations. Best to check those first

Regarding CSA certification, here's an excerpt from their website.

Q2 : Am I required by law to comply with CSA OHS standards?

A2 : CSA is not a government body and does not have the power to make a standard mandatory. A standard only becomes law if a federal, provincial or municipal government references it in legislation. Various CSA standards are cited in legislation at federal, provincial, state and municipal levels across North America. Many are internationally or regionally harmonized. Compliance with all CSA standards is voluntary unless legislated by government or mandated by industry or trade associations. Regulatory references can either mandate compliance with the standard or identify compliance with the standard as meeting the intent of the regulation. While adherence to CSA OHS standards may not always be required by law, companies often favour CSA standards as a way to demonstrate due diligence in their safety programs. CSA standards are often designed to be complementary to the policies of provincial and federal OHS regulators in tackling the issue of worker safety. In addition, they help employers and safety groups to: determine what equipment is appropriate for the job; determine the required qualifications of skilled workers, and develop appropriate safety procedures.

[bluestar]

I'm probably one of the Suppliers you're referring to. While our equipment is manufactured by a factory in China its designed by me and built to our specifications.

as much as I would love to build in US or Canada, its just not possible economically. we do much of our prototyping here and costs are literally 10x on most components.

Yes there are a lot of manufacturers you can purchase from on Alibaba, our products are not offered there, and you deal with us directly for any warranty issues.

While it may seem like splitting Hairs, our stills are Manufactured in China, but are not Cheap Chinese stills.

I can put you in touch with real distillers that are running our equipment for daily production.

Steve

Steve, as the US designer of record and importer of the manufactured product, you can do the paperwork and testing required to get the compliances with orgs like ASME, etc. Whether it is worth the expense is another matter. But I wouldn't expect the Chinese manufacturer to do that for something built to your design.