Cooking / gelatinizing unmalted rye

[PeteB]

I am getting inconsistent yields from my rye and was wondering if I am not cookng correctly.

The information I have says gelatinization range 57 - 70 deg c = 135 - 158 f Does anyone disagree?

If I cook at over 70 c does it matter?

I assume this is for unmalted rye.

How long do I hold it at this temperature?

The rye is crushed in a roller mill so I guess it may take longer than a rye flour.

Thanks

Pete

[Blackheart]

Using any enzymes or malt on the heat up process? We do a minimum 1 hour hold at temp (155-ish), but gel should have started at around 140-145f (for us).

[PeteB]

I don't add any malt or enzymes until after gelatinization,

I put hot water in my mash tank then add crushed rye. Temperature ends up about 76 deg C ( approx 169 f)

An iodine starch test is done at the start of lautering when runoff is cloudy. There is very little starch in the liquid but there are some tiny black flecks of solids that I assume are flour particles that have not converted, does anyone know if this is normal?

[Blackheart]

Please be gentle with this suggestion, folks, if you have a different method: I'd try enzymes in the pre gel phase, even if it's just a bit, just to spur your gel sooner. Then add more (presumably, if it's your cook plan) at the hold temp, then G-amalyase on the way down/pre lauter. It might be getting close to being too hot post gel phase, but that's just a cheap-seat observation.

I've seen those bits too in the starch test. Gonna get a microscope on them someday. For roller-milled rye, the black flecks could be the bitter ends of the kernal, or something. Then again, the late temp gel issue could be because it's rolled and not milled. Could you try milling and lautering with rice hulls and see what happens?

[PeteB]

I did try adding enzymes at a much higher temperature (87deg C)at pre-gelatinizing, at the suggestion of the enzyme supplier.

Only did one test this way then one at 65C post cook and got a higher yield at 65. Only did one test at each temperature so it would not qualify as scientific proof that it doesn't work at the higher temperature. I assume the enzymes for this trial must be able to work at a much higher temperature than the "regular" enzymes, but not this time. Will get some more to do a repeat.

What is G-amalayse? is it alpha?

I have tried milling finer but I can't get rice hulls in Tasmania. Freight for a bulky item is very expensive. Have tried other hulls but found it needs very big volumes to keep the grain bed open to prevent the lauter becoming stuck.

getting a little off subject, last year I did an oat mash with small amounts of barley, wheat and rye. The oats had all their husks as they were straight off my harvester. The husks assisted a very fast lauter runoff. (After 12 months in a barrel it is beginning to taste very promising)

I might try a lower temperature cook to see what happens.

[Blackheart]

Most enzymes, unless they are commercial high temp ones, get denatured above 165f and dont do squat. Dont know what you tried in your experiments, but if they weren't high temp ones, they denatured as soon as they hit the high temp mash. Also, check that pH. Too high and your enzymes wont work, either.

The G i was referring to is liquid GlucoAmalyse. It's a lower temp enzyme and it is responsible (please forgive me if someone out there is straighter on this than me) for less conversion than the A Amalyase, but still important in my opinion. Any questions on enzymes, while it's in my head, should be fired at Jason McCammon at Specialty Enzymes. He's a wiz, great customer service, and they provide a great product right on time. he's at jason@specialtyenzymes.com