daveflintstone Posted November 6, 2008 Posted November 6, 2008 Has anyone any experience with a Revenoor still?
daveflintstone Posted November 6, 2008 Author Posted November 6, 2008 I mean a Revenoor still, from revenoor.com
Native Cracker Posted December 4, 2008 Posted December 4, 2008 I mean a Revenoor still, from revenoor.com I own one. what do you need to know
Guest Liberty Bar - Seattle Posted January 17, 2009 Posted January 17, 2009 I own one. what do you need to know If I had to guess...I'm guessing that he's wondering how you feel about your Revenoor. Which one do you have? Does the proof get up to the levels that they publicize? Have you had any problems? What's support like from those guys? I'm just guessing though.
absaroka Posted January 17, 2009 Posted January 17, 2009 Just and FYI.... Those stills are not ASME certified and the ICC (international code council, the ones who write the international building, fire, etc. codes that most local officials reference) do not approve of them. Stills are a pressure vessel and must follow ASME Code Section VIII Division 1 criteria. If your local authorities know what they are doing or contact the ICC, those types of shed-built stills will become decoratoin.
grehorst Posted January 17, 2009 Posted January 17, 2009 Just and FYI....Those stills are not ASME certified and the ICC (international code council, the ones who write the international building, fire, etc. codes that most local officials reference) do not approve of them. Stills are a pressure vessel and must follow ASME Code Section VIII Division 1 criteria. If your local authorities know what they are doing or contact the ICC, those types of shed-built stills will become decoratoin. ...coming from total ignorance here... how is a still a pressure vessel when it is open to the atmosphere via the output at the condenser? I understand my still (A Holstein) is a pressure vessel but I thought that was because of the steam jacket. Thanks,
Seth Posted January 17, 2009 Posted January 17, 2009 I too would like some information on revenoor stills. I was possibly considering purchasing one. I have talked to Terry at revenoor but would like some outside opinions. So am I gathering that if I want an ASME approved still do I have to spend $50,000+ to get one. I know a rather successful distillery in Iowa is using a revenoor still to produce their whiskey. I was just wondering being that I have little knowledge of ASME codes. Just Wondering Seth
Paul G Posted January 17, 2009 Posted January 17, 2009 Just and FYI....Those stills are not ASME certified and the ICC (international code council, the ones who write the international building, fire, etc. codes that most local officials reference) do not approve of them. Stills are a pressure vessel and must follow ASME Code Section VIII Division 1 criteria. If your local authorities know what they are doing or contact the ICC, those types of shed-built stills will become decoratoin. I have to second (third?) the sentiment that your citations of ASME and ICC refer to pressure vessels in the context of steam jacketed stills, not direct fired. The still portion is not a pressure vessel, nor should it EVER be. There are many examples of both Revenoor and similarly designed stills in legal operation around the country. Too many to say that they slipped past an incompetent inspector. Cheers, Paul
Denver Distiller Posted January 17, 2009 Posted January 17, 2009 A "pressure vessel" is one that's designed to operate at over 15 psig. That's, not coincidentally, where the line is between low and high pressure boilers. It's also why run of the mill fermenters peg at 15 psi, and don't have ASME certification. Going over 15 psi brings out a whole raft of regulations. I don't know of any potstills that run at 15 psig in the product path. My safety release valve on the jackets are set at 10 psig.
absaroka Posted January 17, 2009 Posted January 17, 2009 I don't know of any potstills that run at 15 psig in the product path. My safety release valve on the jackets are set at 10 psig. Mine are set at 15psi, boiler is always less than that. ICC reps cite that if there are no pressure release valves in the distillation path, then there is no way to determine absolute pressure in that vessel (unless you have certification of that). The still is heating Class I, II, or III flammable liquids beyond their closed cup flash point and it is being sent through a distillation column/path (restrictive) creating either pressure or vacuum. That's why they frown on the homebuilt applications, there are no release valves plumbed into them to ensure the <15psi rating. And ASME codes cite the vessel can be fired or unfired, the source of how the pressure is made is not important. It doesn't just apply to the steam jackets. This is all according the Senior Technical Staff Officials at the ICC. I am just reiterating what they told/wrote to my local officials. It is up to your local officials to either approve or disapprove your installation. Once approved, it would be extremely difficult for them to go back on it. That is why you see them in some commercial (craft) applications. If your local officials have the confidence to make that decision without searching (or talking with ICC reps), then there should be no problem. If you get ignorant or difficult officials, that is the answer they will get from the staff that write these codes. BTW, they aren't very fond of European models either. They state that few, if any, have US authorized inspectors to certify them via ASME, IFC, NFPA 30, or IMC. I laughed at that one out loud, but that's what they wrote. All of this information is here to provide a little "devil's advocate" for those seeking homebuilt stills. Now you know and could possibly save you some $$ in the long run if you first have a conversation with your local code enforcement representatives. There are many examples of both Revenoor and similarly designed stills in legal operation around the country. Too many to say that they slipped past an incompetent inspector. Cheers, Paul I see flagrant code violations driving down the street in any town (engineering background).... stuff gets by these inspectors all the time. Distillation techniques are hardly household concepts, so officials balk and sign off. I see/saw it all of the time in other industries
Paul G Posted January 17, 2009 Posted January 17, 2009 For reference, I'm going to toss in a couple terms as I prefer to use them which may not necessarily concur with commonly used industry terms. However, I'll offer some explanation for my rationale as I go along. Mine are set at 15psi, boiler is always less than that. ICC reps cite that if there are no pressure release valves in the distillation path, then there is no way to determine absolute pressure in that vessel (unless you have certification of that). Bottom line here, if I were to argue with a government inspector it would be as effective as pissing on them and trying to convince them it's raining. However, for the sake of discussion, I contend that I could determine, using nothing more than a ruler, the exact pressure in each part of the column to within 1/100th of a pound [1]. Simply put, the amount of back pressure is generated by the depth of the liquid level in each plate. If a plate is designed such that the liquid level is 1 inch (I'm just tossing numbers out to make the math easy) and the column has 6 plates, then at the boiler, its simply not possible to generate pressure exceeding 6 inches of water (less if you correct for density and temperature). Thus, at 27.7 inches of water per psi, that's around 0.22 psi. If you account for the turbulence of the vapors passing through the liquid at each plate, it would be even less as there's less effective depth to generate back pressure. One more consideration as I re-read this...the cumulative area of the holes in each plate. Taking into consideration how much pressure is required to push a volume of vapor though that area (which I'm not sure really adds up to much but it is quantifiable) would also be added to the back pressure of the plate liquid levels. In the end, I still would predict the pressure to come in well under 1 psi. From an official's standpoint, I can see where they would have an issue with not having a gauge at each point to prove what pressure it is (relief or not). Then again, in the grand scheme of a still's expense, what's the cost of adding a gauge or 6? The still is heating Class I, II, or III flammable liquids beyond their closed cup flash point and it is being sent through a distillation column/path (restrictive) creating either pressure or vacuum. That's why they frown on the homebuilt applications, there are no release valves plumbed into them to ensure the <15psi rating. And ASME codes cite the vessel can be fired or unfired, the source of how the pressure is made is not important. It doesn't just apply to the steam jackets. On the other hand, most custom/home built rigs are pot stills [2] and not column stills and there's no restriction in the vapor path to generate any pressure whatsoever...as (it appears) are the Revenoor and Iberian Copper (oooh, shiny) appear to be. Even so, it's not a difficult thing to add in a pressure relief mechanism, whether it be a precision relief valve or simply a hinged flapper that's held in place by nothing more than gravity (think of the doodads that cover a bulldozer's exhaust pipe). Vacuum can be handled the same way. Either way, as long as there isn't a means of closing off the vapor path from the atmosphere (which IMHO would be a bad idea in the first place) there doesn't really exist a means of generating significant pressure inside a still...nor should there. All of this information is here to provide a little "devil's advocate" for those seeking homebuilt stills. Now you know and could possibly save you some $$ in the long run if you first have a conversation with your local code enforcement representatives. Personally, I appreciate the devil's advocate style input and hopefully mine is taken in the same vein. I see flagrant code violations driving down the street in any town (engineering background).... stuff gets by these inspectors all the time. Distillation techniques are hardly household concepts, so officials balk and sign off. I see/saw it all of the time in other industries I can absolutely relate to that. That's why I prefer to be my own worst critic. Cheers, Paul [1] Of course I'm probably setting myself up for missing something fairly basic that will blow my whole claim and leave me looking pretty foolish. [2] I use "pot still" interchangeably with "alembic" in terms of design in contrast with column/reflux. Where manufacturers like Holstein and others call their multi-plate column rigs pot stills I'll never know. Perhaps they're using that term to distinguish batch stills with continuous (where I'm using "batch" where the boiler has to be drained and refilled each run and continuous is hopefully self explanatory). To-may-to, to-mah-to I guess.
Denver Distiller Posted January 17, 2009 Posted January 17, 2009 I'm not discounting what you're saying Absaroka....at all. Just explaining what a pressure vessel is to those who don't know about them (clearly: that ain't you ). Your point is very well taken.
absaroka Posted January 18, 2009 Posted January 18, 2009 I just don't want to have anyone get "bit" by this information later on. Hopefully some day somebody will eventually come across this nugget of info and leave with a better feeling of what could be expected. I side-stepped this issue due to the simple fact of who built my still and where it was produced (Vendome). Up unitl then, I really had no idea even though I frequent various code books all of the time. Paul, your arguments are valid and I totally am on the engineering side of things when it comes to this issue. Code officials aren't necessarily engineers or the most informed individuals, especially when it comes to the distilling industry. And they unfortunately (or fortunately for some) are the ones who hold the final decision. How many people come and look at your still and it's like a cave man seeing television for the first time? They have no clue (until after they leave once we've explained the process). Stills are simplistic and complicated pieces of equipment all at the same time, and I love that part of it! Continuing off of Denver Distiller's post, anything ASME certified is guaranteed to cost you exponentially. Paul: your math is accurate but I think the underlying principle of relief valves is a "what if" type of scenerio, i.e. restriction or failure. Hell, all codes are written to "what if" scenerios. Good points all around.....
Jester Posted January 18, 2009 Posted January 18, 2009 Folks, I love the way this thread played out. I had wanted to chime in on the codes whereas I come from a code welders backround on boilers. I have read the codes recently on power piping and process piping but not looked at the pertinent standards. I was going to check with our codes and standards guy at my work. I still will, I do remember the 15 PSI rule and others. The PRV is the answer to these concerns. Paul was right on with the plates and Inches of H2O. Although you would not want to argue with any AHJ, you could with the right tact and education sway their thinking. You could also get a PE to verify the potential pressures. I don't remember the dissimilar metals in the codes and dont think the copper to stainless would be covered. I can imagine the "off shore" built stills don't exactly meet US standards. G.W. Kent sells a PRV/VAC breaker combo. it is not asme certified though( i don't think). But you ca get them very reasonable through the likes of McMaster.com Great conversations, Jester
Jester Posted January 21, 2009 Posted January 21, 2009 folks, I have checked with our codes and standards engineer. I have it on very good authority that a pressure vessel is at or over 15 psi and the standard steam prv at less than 15 psi will keep the unit from being a code pressure vessel. I do remember that under a certiain diameter you can exceed the 15 psi but it is not relevant here. bottom line is you don't need more that 14.9 psi and you won't be in the code area of a pressure vessel. we work in the Hydrogen research and development industry. we work nationally and work directly with a lot of the agencies that write the codes. every person should do what they feel comfortable with, but know what you have to do to do a legal and ethical business. codes are written to protect people and equipment, in that order. no one should try to side step a code to save money. on that note you should not follow one officials say so if they may be misunderstanding our intent. The engineer that i spoke with has gone to bat against some very reputable officials, not to butt heads, but to reduce cost where it is justified. it ended favorably without anyones feeling being hurt. education.
delaware_phoenix Posted January 21, 2009 Posted January 21, 2009 Just so people know, standard atmospheric pressure at sea level is 14.696 psi.
Jester Posted January 22, 2009 Posted January 22, 2009 A pressure vessel is a closed container designed to hold gases or liquids at a pressure different from the ambient pressure. education...
delaware_phoenix Posted January 22, 2009 Posted January 22, 2009 So a still in an of itself is not a pressure vessel, right?
Paul G Posted January 22, 2009 Posted January 22, 2009 Warning, this might come across as pedantic...my advance apologies if it does. Pressure as measured in any vessel, and as referred to by any official, it is technically (though not consciously spoken) differential pressure between the inside of the vessel and atmosphere. To get into engineer-ese, you never have just "psi" but rather: PSIA - Pounds (force) [1] per square inch absolute. This would be the pressure relative to a perfect vacuum. As you mention, atmospheric pressure is 14.696 and that would be in units of psia. PSIG - Pounds (force) per square inch gauge. This would be any pressure as directly compared to atmospheric pressure. PSID - Pounds (force) per square inch differential. This is simply measured between two pressures (except atmospheric where psig applies) to determine a difference. Similarly, when measuring smaller amounts of pressure where psi would read in minute decimal places, other units apply. One familiar unit is inches of mercury (in/hg) used when referring to barometric pressure. Another, for measuring even smaller changes would be inches of water (in/wc - that's water 'column' not water closet). These are typical manometer (fluid in a tube) units. So, with a still being open to atmospheric pressure, it's true that the pressure inside is 14.7 psia, but that's also true on the outside. Therefore the net pressure, psig, is zero. If it were pressurized to, say, 10 psig, the pressure could also be stated as 24.7 psia...but that just gets confusing. So, I guess that's the long way of saying "no, it's not." Of course the discussion also includes debate on whether or not it's considered such by inspection officials. If nothing else, perhaps it might help to clear up some of the calculations I was rambling on about previously. Cheers, Paul [1] To distinguish between the units of pounds that measure mass...those kooky English and their units
JBWagoner Posted January 22, 2009 Posted January 22, 2009 Has anyone any experience with a Revenoor still? It's been years but back in 2004, I had a lot of problems getting a still from Revenoor. I don't know if he has his act together now, but after reviewing my emails from then, it was a definite hassle. Since then, I've made 190 proof agave spirits using a Holstein still and a stills of my own design. The folks at Bavarian Holstein Partners are good folks and were helpful in discovering if Temequila® was a realizable fantasy. Their machines are beautiful, functional and expensive, but I guess that comes with the territory. My stills aren't as pretty, but the resultant alcohol is identical in production time and liquor quality. Our current production stills are 300 and 600 gallon with refluxing columns. The stainless steel pots can do double-duty as fermentation vessels or storage. The column, condensers, coils and packing are all high-grade copper and brass welded by skilled craftsman (bazooka maker, but that's another story). They are powered by 500,000btu and 1,500,000btu propane burners in an outdoor enclosure to assure adequate ventilation and are Federally licensed (the license that really matters). A danger of an improperly designed refluxing still is that in full-reflux, when most of the vapors are turned back into liquids at the top of the column, a liquid block develops and steam builds pressure. Things blow up when there's too much pressure. Our modern/traditional condensers run off a water-hose with waste water run directly into the irrigation. Waste wash goes right from still to a large deep leach field. We've even considered doing an Agave Hot Tub as a spa treatment, but that too, is another story. Also, you're collecting flammable liquid in a bucket next to a fire. Some people are better at this than others. It's the simple things that can ruin your day. Good Luck. Have Fun.
delaware_phoenix Posted January 22, 2009 Posted January 22, 2009 Thanks Paul G for explaining the different measurements for psi. That was certainly one of the things that was confusing me greatly.
Native Cracker Posted April 10, 2009 Posted April 10, 2009 I think I am glad I did not just jump in and answer his question because I sure did learn a lot about atmospheric pressure and PSI. Well any how the still I own is fine some times customer service is not what you would expect but I am happy with the still. I own a small 10 gal, lets see if I can get through the paperwork and the inspections and I will report later on if it meets the code or not. Native Cracker
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