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Posted

My opinion on the "Master" recognition: it is exactly that, a "recognition" of experience, education and determination. It is not a title one takes upon oneself. It is an awarded title, not self-assigned. It's inappropriate for a person to take on the title: Master Electrician, or Master anything without some qualification from a recognized source. Of course you could put "Master Electrician" on your card and sell yourself as such, and it might work, right up to the point you must convince an insurance company to insure your work or the house you wired for your buddy burns down.

Posted

I think, which is something I sometimes do, that for all of us in this budding industry that 90% of us are "a jack of all trades but a master of none" but we sure can make great whiskey. Coop

Posted

I for one wholeheartedly agree that the industry could use a standardized definition, however I would question a prohibition against NGS, because unless I am mistaken, many distilleries use what are essentially "Netrual Spirits" to produce and blend their finished products. Irish and Canadian whisky'(s) come to mind, except that in their nomenclature the term NGS doesn't really exist in the same way as in the US. They appear to blend their pot stock with : sic. NGS to bring about the end flavors they are looking for.

So a prohibition against NGS would seem to be contradictory to "craft distillers" drive towards the quality and consistency that many famous brands and styles have been using all along. Unless of course the NGS prohibition was merely sidestepped as I would imagine it would be, by people using 94.5% alcohol, which would then totally negate the intent of the prohibition.

Production of gins, aquavits, etc., can be done by redistillation of NGS with choice of botanicals in a way that most of us would consider craft, and would be prohibited by this definition. Would we really feel that requiring someone to product their own NGS in order to make a London Dry gin is what distinguishes them from someone that makes their own NGS?

What do you think, Ralph?

Posted

My personal opinion is that fermentation is a critical aspect of the craft. However, the ACDA and most craft distillers agree that the bottom line is a double line: the BASIC PERMIT and the STATE PERMIT. The question: "Must a craft distiller ferment his own mash?" is open to discussion, but at this point the main distinguishing fact separating rectifiers and blenders from Distillers is: a Distiller distills.There are a number of distilleries opening in partnership with brewers who prepare their mash. For some it is a necessary step, jobbing out the fermentation due to space prohibitions and equipment shortages. There is certainly craft in the combining of botanicals for gin. It is an ongoing debate.

Posted

Generally I agree with you Ralph, although I am not sure how I feel about it with regards to the botanical distillations: gin, absinthe, aquavit, etc. One could argue that even if done from purchased NGS or other spirit, it is distillation really and not rectification, in the sense that the intent is to use the fractionation effect of distilling from/over/through the botanicals to extract essences and produce cuts that provide a target product flavor and aroma. The intent of rectification is purification by repeated distillation, predominantly, so the redistill for a vodka or something similar is certainly rectification. I think one way to define distilling separate from rectification is require that some raw (undistilled) material must contribute substantially to the final product as part of the process of distillation: this would encompass distilling from one's own ferment, from procured wine, beer, or pomace, from spirits with added botanicals or agricultural products, etc. The "craft", then, for any craft distiller, would be in how the processing of distilling extracts flavors and aromas from the added non-spirit materials into the final product.

Posted

Thanks Bluestar. Indeed, the original definition we composed a couple years ago allowed for addition of botanicals and other processes that "substantially change the character of the spirit" when GNS is used as a base. Some argue that fermentation is a basic requirement for a "craft" operation, but I'm not so sure since there is craft and skill in the combining of botanicals and other materials. It seems most agree with criteria which includes distilling in a still and change of character when using GNS. You are correct that "rectification" includes distillation. In any case, to manipulate the spirits a DSP permit from the Fed is required, regardless the various State license categories.

Posted

My $.02.....

"Substantially changing the character of the spirit" is what craft is about.

We make our own vodka and gin base as well as many types of whiskey. Craft.

Folks that make gin via botanical infusion with NGS/GNS. Craft. We don't do that, but it should be considered craft.

Folks that make vodka with NGS/GNS. Not craft.

Folks that make flavored vodka with NGS/GNS. Blurred lines.

We mingle some spirits here that we don't distill. I don't think that's craft. It's a bunch of work and some of our projects, Very Old Scout, for instance, took nearly 4 months to refine those blends (mingling really).

Posted

My $.02.....

"Substantially changing the character of the spirit" is what craft is about.

We make our own vodka and gin base as well as many types of whiskey. Craft.

Folks that make gin via botanical infusion with NGS/GNS. Craft. We don't do that, but it should be considered craft.

Folks that make vodka with NGS/GNS. Not craft.

Folks that make flavored vodka with NGS/GNS. Blurred lines.

We mingle some spirits here that we don't distill. I don't think that's craft. It's a bunch of work and some of our projects, Very Old Scout, for instance, took nearly 4 months to refine those blends (mingling really).

For the most part I agree with this characterization, maybe with the following caveat: blending can be craft, just not craft distilling; rather, that might be called a craft blender, if you want to stretch it. And so on. But I suspect the ACDA should be concentrating on what a craft distiller is, and leave to others the other definitions for now?

Posted

Maybe the better direction would be for the product itself, vs calling the DSP craft or not. I.e. a "craft distilled product" label , for only those products that fall within the preset parameters that the majority feels acceptable. Like the DSP as an entity can only bottle xx,xxx proof gallons per year. This then triggers the next step in the "craft label" process,

Off site NGS - vodka - No ( or whatever the majority feels appropriate for the benefit of the label "craft distilled"

On site NGS - vodka - yes

Off site whiskey - mixed with rhubarb - No (etc)

Think about the end goal: Consumer awareness of some as yet defined generally acceptable set of parameters that define the products they may choose to purchase.

For example if you want to buy "organic" produce, it isn't important who grew the cabbage, it's that it was certified "organic" . Then down the road you may find you particularly like a certain farmers cabbages, but the gateway to that sale started with the term "organic" not with "grown by x farmer who is certified organic".

We need a set of parameters that allow "craft distillers" to market "certain" products in a manner that is not harmed by mega-producers, and is generally acceptable to those in the craft industry (whatever that is eventually determined to be). By having a "label parameter" it would allow small distilleries to for example flavor outside NGS/GNS and not get a "craft label" for that product, but still get one for their White Dog, etc..,

Then as a group we start talking to our liquor distributors (and direct to liquor stores) and bars about showcasing "craft brands" that are truly "craft" . As a DSP you may have a product that gets on that shelf and you may have one that gets on the shelf with all the the other fancy NGS. But producing one, doesn't preclude you from producing the other, provided that you are a DSP that falls under some as yet determined volume.

As a side issue on Master Distiller (and I assume journeyman distiller, apprentice, etc..) they are wonderful concepts and would be a great path for individuals, but I don't know if they are really applicable to a consumer product for "endorsement" . Those terms of specialty seem to be more related to services than products. I can't actually think of one single product that I have ever purchased that was in some way marketed as being produced by a "master" of anything. I've had electrical, plumbing, etc.. provided by "masters" but not products. Perhaps it is an effect of our consumer driven culture, that make us believe that everything we purchase was produced by a "master" :)

Posted

All I'm saying with the Master Distiller argument is that the standards do not exist to define such a title, and so it is presumptuous of us to say who may or may not use that title. I don't claim it for myself, but what curriculum do you define it with? My sister is a chemical engineer and designs industrial ethanol stills for a living, can she be one? There are guys on the Home Distiller website with decades of experience distilling in their basements? Do they qualify? Do we take a test or do you need a degree? Can I apprentice? Until we define the answers to those questions (not so much the one about my sister :) ) we can't judge.

Posted

All I'm saying with the Master Distiller argument is that the standards do not exist to define such a title, and so it is presumptuous of us to say who may or may not use that title. I don't claim it for myself, but what curriculum do you define it with? My sister is a chemical engineer and designs industrial ethanol stills for a living, can she be one? There are guys on the Home Distiller website with decades of experience distilling in their basements? Do they qualify? Do we take a test or do you need a degree? Can I apprentice? Until we define the answers to those questions (not so much the one about my sister :) ) we can't judge.

Maybe take a nod from american craft brewers? Find one who is main person responsible for the creation of beer at any respectable brewery -- chances are, those without a crap ton of experience and seriously notable accomplishments within the industry will regard themselves as the Head Brewers vs. BrewMaster. It's not a standards, marketing or regulatory thing. It's a respect thing.

  • 3 weeks later...
Posted

A Master Distiller operates within the law. Basement hobby distillers may have the "distillation" part down, but they are not accepting the full responsibility for the craft activity. I used to run up against this same logic in the climbing business. Highly experienced rock climbers often hire out to beginners as "guides". They sometimes do not get a guide license and they rarely carry insurance for their clients. Just being really good at something is not enough. A "Master's" job, like a climbing guide's, includes the protection of everyone involved, protection which extends beyond immediate physical safety to include a safe conclusion to the undertaking and a realization that accidents happen and it's the "Master" or the "guide" who must protect his charges in the event of accident and injury. What happens when something goes wrong, who is "responsible". If a basement distiller without a license blows up his house or starts a fire which jeopardizes others, his neighbors, the community, an injustice? When a "home distiller" operates without a license, uninspected, uninsured against accidents, who ensures responsible practice? There may be no accepted course of study or academic award or formal process in place for determining who is a "Master Distiller", but it is my opinion the absence of any formal program or criteria does not change the fact that the title "Master" is not one which is self-awarded, it is recognition from some higher authority in whatever category. The term "Master" includes a much broader field than simply operating a still. It includes safe legal operating practices, staff safety considerations, insurance, ensuring product is safe, having professional inspection of systems. This is NOT making beer or wine, it generating volatile gas and no matter how many precautions you make to keep your little home distilling set up safe, it is NOT SAFE, accidents happen.

  • 4 months later...

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