Boiler Pricing Range

[jwalla]

Hi Guys,

I've scoured the forum pretty well, as well as contacted what I think are most of the big boiler guys in my area, and I have to say I'm having some real sticker shock when it comes to boiler cost. Everyone I've contacted about a 15hp / 1mill btu / low pressure steam boiler with installation is coming in between $65,000-$90,000.

I had no idea these were that expensive, and it blows up my start up costs significantly. I obviously don't want to cut corners on the heart of my operation. Would you mind giving me a ballpark as to boiler cost of some of your operations, and if you were satisfied with what you purchased? I just want to know whether I'm getting worked over here or if that number is legit.

Thanks a ton.

Justin

[Sorghumrunner]

It's hard to say specifically for your situation, but boilers really do end up being pricey. We went with a 6hp, 200k btu boiler and I did a lot of the install work myself. Still, spent about $5000 on the boiler itself and about another $6500 on the electric, piping and installation. My quotes from actual boiler installers were around $10,000 for just the piping on a fairly straightforward, less than 10 foot piping run, with no condensate return. Took about 5 days to complete the installation.

At 1mm BTU you are probably triggering more state inspection than for a smaller installation, so I'd be sure to hire someone who was competent with the codes.

[rumfarmer]

We have a 399K BTU boiler and it triggered all kinds of inspection headaches. I think our total cost for the boiler with install was probably close to $30K in the end. We tried to do it ourselves but once the boiler inspector gets involved, everything changes. On this one, I would actually budget to have it done by one qualified installer. That way you also have support. This is one place where if I had it to do over again, I would pay more. The boiler really is the heart of everything you do.

[GeekSpirits]

We have a 399K BTU boiler and it triggered all kinds of inspection headaches. I think our total cost for the boiler with install was probably close to $30K in the end. We tried to do it ourselves but once the boiler inspector gets involved, everything changes. On this one, I would actually budget to have it done by one qualified installer. That way you also have support. This is one place where if I had it to do over again, I would pay more. The boiler really is the heart of everything you do.

I have a 399K BTU one being installed now. It is a little hard to completely separate it out from other work being done as part of the general buildout but it is in that $30k range including the boiler.

[jeffw]

I would say your price is a little too high for 1 million btus. I don't know what your install looks like of course. Is someone requiring explosion proof room with blast panels and such...? Otherwise, I would say you should be able to get it done for around 50k. My 40hp system was right at that price installed but the run to the stills was extremely short. They did run 4" pipe for me though and I think the install was quite well done IMO. All that said too, the people I went to for the install were not the cheapest and the boiler wasn't the cheapest that I found either. I don't think most places require a licensed mechanical person to do install and running black pipe is really easy. If you are going stainless with the piping, that is a different story. Good luck.

[jwalla]

You're all gentleman and scholars. Thanks for the feedback.

I guess that leaves option 1 of going w a much smaller boiler and not running the mash tun and still at the same time, or option 2 of going with the cheapest bidder, although given some of your responses it sounds like you get what you pay for in the boiler world. Definitely food for thought.

[GeekSpirits]

You're all gentleman and scholars. Thanks for the feedback.

I guess that leaves option 1 of going w a much smaller boiler and not running the mash tun and still at the same time, or option 2 of going with the cheapest bidder, although given some of your responses it sounds like you get what you pay for in the boiler world. Definitely food for thought.

What I ended up doing was making my boiler room large enough to house two 399k BTU boilers. If/when I outgrow the single one, I will add in a second.

[Natrat]

Justin, I'm not sure what state you're in, or why you need a million btus, but the last install that I was part of (1.2 million btu, North Carolina) was $98k, including all process piping, condensate, water treatment, insulation, regulators, and boiler room temp controlled shutters. That was for a brand new Fulton.

If you buy a used boiler, you can probably cut 30k off that, but you get what you pay for.

The most important thing is to have a boiler installer you trust...and that might be yourself, in the end. But boiler sizing, pipe sizing, local and state codes, insulation, and effective condensate systems is yet ANOTHER thing to learn about if you do it that way...and unless you have prior knowledge, it makes the climb to being a distiller even steeper.

How did you determine you need a 15 hp system?

[jwalla]

Hi Nat.

Sorry. I mistyped that. I meant 15 psi. I was told the 2 basic options are low pressure <15psi and high pressure >15psi. So I have no idea what the HP is for such a device, but have heard most people get by with low pressure.

I went to a distilling seminar where the rule of thumb was 1,000btu per liter you'd need to heat. 250g still is roughly 1,000l so that's where I got the million. If I could get by with smaller I'd gladly do it, but I don't want it screaming as I try and run mash tun / still simultaneously.

[Blockader]

That should be more like 1,000 btus per gallon. To heat 250 gallons of room temperature wash to distillation temperature in an hour would take around a 200,000 btus (250 gallons x 8lbs x 100 degrees). The boiler would need to be a little larger than 200k btus for practical purposes, though. A million btu boiler would give a faster heat up time, excess capacity to run additional stills, mash cookers, etc, and room to grow. But if you can't afford that then you should be able to get by with substantially smaller unit.

[jeffw]

As far as sizing goes, get an idea where local code issues change by size (sometimes you need a licensed person to turn on the boiler above a certain size). When I was shopping boilers, the price change for larger size unit was really minimal. For instance, to go from 30 hp to 40 hp was something like 2k or 2.5k. Better to go bigger if you can, but I have to agree for a 250 gallon system you could get by with half of what you are thinking. 1 btu is the amount of energy to raise 1 pound of water 1 degree. So 250 x 8.35 x delta T (fill that one in yourself) and you get a rough sizing. You will want more than that as you will have thermal inefficiencies carrying steam to your system even if it is insulated. If you want to run the mash tun at the same time, you can stagger your startup by an hour or get a bigger boiler. But even at 700,000 btu you are fine (came up with that as firing both vessels at the same time leading to doubling the size and 10 thermal loss). For some systems, it was no difference in cost to go bigger (Clayton I think). The 20hp was the same as 50hp if I remember correctly. See what the local breweries are using and who they had do their install. Your needs are pretty similar to theirs (assuming they aren't doing direct fire).

[Natrat]

These guys are in the right of it. For a 250 gallon still and similar mash tun, 500k btu is plenty plenty. 350k would probably get you by.

If you're calculating for boiler spec, one BHP is about 33475 btu per hour. It's based on the amount of heat needed to convert 34.5 lbs of water to steam at theoretical absence of pressure. IME, only boiler guys use the term...stick to BTU per hour and you should be ok.

Very few LP boilers are specced to run at 15 psi...usually they will be rated for 80-100 psi, and you can run them around 30-45, and regulate the steam for a lower pressure delivery...which works well because you get a pressure loss over your piping. If your steam jacket is rated for 15 psi, you'll probably want to run between 12 and 13.5...which is plenty.

If you do all your figuring for heating water, you'll be building in a good safety factor, since we don't usually run to the boiling temp of water for all day :-)

Right there you've saved $50k!

[jwalla]

You guys are the best. So if I figure 250X8.35X140 (210degrees-70degrees) = ~300,000 btu. If I figure I might want to run both at the same time I'd double it to 600k.

Back to the drawing board for more quotes around the 700k-800k btu range. Figure I want to leave a little slack and compensate for inefficiencies as well. Hopefully this will reduce the cost at least a little bit since that's ultimately the goal.

I didn't mean to hijack the boiler price thread, but this will probably be more useful than the original question.

[Silk City Distillers]

Always thought that a potential option for an undersized steam boiler installation would be to get creative with reducing your mash delta-t, specifically by utilizing tankless hot water heaters to preheat mash water to as near mash temp as possible. Not proposing you knowingly undersize your steam boiler, but if you found yourself in that situation, it's easy to add another 200kbtu, at relatively low cost compared to replacing your boiler. Commercial units can heat up to near 175, if you can deal with the much lower flow rates as trade off. Many manufacturers offer units that can be chained together to increase temp or speed, as with anything else, money is time and time is money.

Depending on your workflow and schedule, it could be a lifesaver, or, it could be meaningless, up to you to determine.

This approach is starting to become commonplace among budget nanobrewers who hit the limits of electric heated HLTs.

[Natrat]

jamesbednar, it's a viable option, but an even better way to go (though it costs a lot more) is to invest in a hot liquor tank, which is essentially a big hot water storage tank. If you size it big enough, it can hold hot process water for your entire day, and be heating at night when your still is down. Typically they are set to 185-202 F, and if you strike it at 190-195 with corn, it's at cooking temp. If a steam jacketed cooker is not in the cards, or your boiler can't run cooker and still at the same time, then HL is the way to go. Even if you just get a well-insulated tank, you can put a tube-and-shell steam heat exchanger in a pump loop, and heat the water that way. Works great.

The issue with tankless heaters is that they are limited to a certain delta T at reasonable flow. There are recirculators and daisy chain systems that work, but the cost goes up fast. One option is to put an tankless inline with the hot water from a conventional hot water tank, and since the incoming water is already 120-130 F, your tankless can bump it up to 185 at full flow. But only until your HW goes dry! Then you have to preheat the water in the tank using the tankless for 10 min before you can go again!

In addition, if you're in a moderately sunny place, solar heat tubes with a glycol loop in the HL tank can help maintain the water temp if it's a bit undersized. I've often toyed with using a solar-powered still using glycol as my heat transfer liquid. I'd have to call it sunshine instead of moonshine, though!

[JohninWV]

This all seems high to me. We have a HB Smith 980K btu boiler that runs a 800 gallon mash tank, a 320 gallon still and a 175 gallon still. We need to stage it properly so all three don't start at the same time, but once started, they can all three run at once. It's pretty much near it's capacity, IMO. We paid $35K for equipment, installation, and insulation. Maybe another $1500-$2000 to get it running as we liked it over 3 months after start up.

[Hypnopooper]

We bought a used Hurst 20HP vertical boiler. It's rated at 863K BTU. We bought used because all new boilers were required to be "low NOX" in Texas if bought new, or we would not be able to be certified if I bought from out of state if it wasn't "Low NOX". A previously used/licensed boiler in the state was exempt from the "Low NOX" rule. The boiler was 9K, Fire room was 3K Floor drain was 1K, and Install was 6.3K. Total cost was about 19K. We are powering (2) 100G stills and its more that adequate. We made sure that we would be able to add a mash tun in the future with no issues to the units output capabilities.

[Palmetto Coast]

We have a 1mil btu steam boiler. Cost for the boiler was ~$17k. I runs our 600g mash tank, 300g still and 100g still. Granted when they are all 3 running, heat-up takes a bit longer, but it still works well. We actually use a Rinnai hot water heater to fill the mash tank for cooking. Takes about an hour to fill, then 30 min more to get up to temp. I will say, expect the piping and overall installation of the boiler to cost as much as the boiler itself. Depends on the piping, water lines, distance, and other bells and whistles you might want. My advice, specify what you need, find someone that knows what they are doing and let them do it. Don't keep changing your specs. That will run you a LOT more (I know, I have a partner that liked to be very involved).

I spoke with a bunch of manufacturers before we bought our boiler. Most said, "Let me know when you figure out what size you need." One said, "Let me help you figure out what size you need." We went with the latter.

Hope this helps.

Todd Weiss

Striped Pig Distillery

[Blackheart]

I know this idea is gonna get strafed and torched, but we searched for and bought a used boiler that suited our needs to a T. We had it inspected before purchase ($500), and shipped form the midwest ($500). Into our bay cost us $5500. It is a Fulton 500,000 btu, low pressure unit. We had new sensors, control panel, and other upgrades made for about another $3000. Install was another $10k (we worked alongside the fitter as a helper, both to learn and save $). We did the exhaust stack (complete assache and expensive if you dont do it yourself) for an additional $1500 or so. Was it more expensive than expected? Yeah. Headaches with the fitter, even tho he was a pro? Yes. Do we have exactly what we want? Absolutely.

[Hypnopooper]

I agree whole heartedly Blackheart. I also found that electrical steam generators are generally cheaper than boilers. But, the cost of adding 3 phase to our electrical panel was going to be 20K for electrical powered steam. So, in the end natural gas is cheaper than electricity for for us and much more efficient. For us, I predict that by going with natural gas/steam, the cost difference will pay for itself based on our current electrical rates in less than 2 years.

Find a reputable boiler inspecter, they usually can get you a good lead on a used boiler for often times more than half the cost of a new one. Pay for the inspection before you buy.

[MG Thermal Consulting]

What was said earlier about the hot liquor tank is the way larger distilleries are going.

With a brazed plate exchanger, you can capture hot water coming off your mash cool and off your still by adding the heat ex, a circulator pump on the reclaim side and the tank. You have more than enough hot water for the next batch.

Not only does it reduce the heating load, it reduces the load on the chilled water tank.

Mike