2 stills production system more efficient?

[CJS]

New guy here...

After reading through most of the posts on here as well as talking and pricing equipment with a couple vendors it seems that it's best to go with 2 stills for efficiency in production. I posted a couple sizes earlier on another thread and got a contradictory response to what I thought I understood for sizing, so I figured I'd ask to get clarification from those of you have been doing this for a while.

First question: If you were to start again, would you start with two stills? If so what sizes would you get if you had the chance?

Second question: Can you shoot some holes in my two concept scenarios and give me some insight as to why or why not I'm on the right track? (my understanding is sizing of the finishing still should be 1/3 the size of the stripping still if distilling with wort, and 1/4 if using grain-in distilling.)

scenario #1
150 gal finishing still / 600 gal stripping still
4800 gallons of tank space (6x600gal, 4x300gal).

scenario#2
200 gal finishing still / 800gal stripping still
6400 gallons of tank capacity (6x800gal, 4x400gal)

Thank you all for your input. It seems every time I find an answer I stumble across a handful more. I hope everyone has a great weekend!

Regards,

C.J.

[souschefdude]

New guy here also, so not the experience you are looking for, but I have come to the same conclusion as you. About 1/4 to 1/3 size of the stripping still for the spirit still.

[Mash]

The size is more dependent on "Sales". What is your sales forecast over a 3 year plan. Best, worst and Average. Then go from there. There is a distillery not far from me has $300, 000 worth of equipment and not really sold anything. Do you have deep pockets? You can make a lot of spirits on the pair of small ones, but it is also a factor of what your making.

[TetonDistillery]

New guy here...

After reading through most of the posts on here as well as talking and pricing equipment with a couple vendors it seems that it's best to go with 2 stills for efficiency in production. I posted a couple sizes earlier on another thread and got a contradictory response to what I thought I understood for sizing, so I figured I'd ask to get clarification from those of you have been doing this for a while.

First question: If you were to start again, would you start with two stills? If so what sizes would you get if you had the chance?

Second question: Can you shoot some holes in my two concept scenarios and give me some insight as to why or why not I'm on the right track? (my understanding is sizing of the finishing still should be 1/3 the size of the stripping still if distilling with wort, and 1/4 if using grain-in distilling.)

scenario #1

150 gal finishing still / 600 gal stripping still

4800 gallons of tank space (6x600gal, 4x300gal).

That is exactly what we do.

Using two stills in this manner turned out to be far more efficient overall.

We are about to add a 3rd 500 gallon pot still to the rotation.

We started with only one column still, then added a 500 gallon pot still for stripping alcohol (and also making whiskey). So there is no need to start with two stills. You can scale into the second still as your demand increases. You can certainly start with just one still in the early days.

We started with 4 X 800 liter fermentation tanks. Then added 5 X 1600 liter fermentation tanks. Now we are adding 4 X 3500 liter fermentation tanks.

You will find that fermentation tanks are your bottleneck for production.

The stills can be run more often with additional shifts and an assistant distiller.

But fermentation tank capacity is simply a time issue.

[CJS]

Just wanted to say thank you all for your input! It's a work in progress

souschefdude - After looking at countless posts it seems that's pretty much what I keep coming up with also. Good luck with your project! If you ever feel like throwing ideas back and forth let me know.

Mash - you have some great points man! I'm going to dig into the sale plan.

Grand Teton/James - I took your conversation to heart when I was looking at my numbers! I'm trying to insure that I can do a limited number of runs each week to produce enough product that it makes sense so I can free up time to focus on marketing and building the business side. Another aspect is that I'm trying to build in some sharing of fermentation and storage for the later stages of my plan.

Happy Holidays!

[souschefdude]

CJS- I am looking at a 50 Gallon still to start, running 3 runs through, then a spirit run. At 7% beer that would be close to 40 gallons of low wines at 25% for the spirit run. Once up and making a dollar I would expand to a 150 gallon Stripping still, keeping the 50 gallon for my spirit still. I would initially start with 3-55 gallon drums for fermenters. Once the big boy still comes into the picture I would step up the fermenter sizes, and reuse the 55 gallon barrels for Low wines, feints and spirit tanks.

[Skaalvenn]

The size is more dependent on "Sales". What is your sales forecast over a 3 year plan. Best, worst and Average. Then go from there. There is a distillery not far from me has $300, 000 worth of equipment and not really sold anything. Do you have deep pockets? You can make a lot of spirits on the pair of small ones, but it is also a factor of what your making.

Agreed.

Need to consider expected sales and how much time you expect to distill. Some people sell a lot, some people don't. Some people would rather do 4-5 smaller runs a week, some would rather do one big run each week. Some people want their still matched to the fermenter fill, some want 2 runs out of each fermenter.

Way too many variables here.

edit: also consider that sizing up from a 200 gallon to a 400 gallon will not only be a more expensive still, but probably a much more expensive heating setup whereas if you heat 200 gallons, you already have the ability to do 400 gallons (it just takes two individual runs).

[CJS]

souschefdude, sounds like you have a pretty good system marked out already! Have you picked out a manufacturer for your still and equipment?

Skaalvenn.. Thanks for the response! And also thank you for your service! It's great seeing a military guy in business.

As for me, I'm trying to research and build my sales forecasts and make sure they are accurate!.... at least within reason. lol. Mash and Skaalvenn have a great point. With this in mind I've been contacting distributors and stores, working on getting a better idea of the market. I'm a little limited since I can't physically go around to ask questions since my work has me out of the country currently. If you have any advice on building sales projections or resources for building them feel free to send me a note!

My production plan is to stick to minimal runs per week so I can dedicate more time to the business building side of the business. This is why I'm looking at a little larger still set-up to begin with. The extra production level is also going to help me in the way that I am also planning on investing in product that will be hanging out for a year or two in barrels. From what I can absorb from those that have been in business for a while it seems like a good way to go on sizing.

I'm trying to put together a plan for the equipment so I can start purchasing most of it in cash over the next 2 or 3 years. I don't have really deep pockets, so my plan is to limit overhead in the execution of distillery part of my plan. One complication that I'm having in planning is trying to include and combine the two other future sides of the business, ie winery and micro-brewery. I'm trying to determine which equipment can be shared, and then scale the size appropriately so as to limit the interference between the different productions. Some of my initial equipment will be purchased at a higher cost because of the additional load and sizing requirements but it will allow an easier transition in later business growth phases.

As always comments, ideas, and thoughts are always appreciated!

Happy Holidays!

[Dehner Distillery]

Not tring to rain on your parade but as Skaalvenn said bigger still bigger money. When you go over a section size still and if you have more than one your boiler with install could cost $40,000-$60,000. Also, if you are putting up lets say 10 barrels a month (thats a low number) the cost of the barrels if they don't come back down soon could cost you $200-$400 each so $2000-$4000 a month x 2 years is $48,00-$96,000 just in empty barrels.

Here is is something I was told when starting out. "Joe you can always get bigger equipment, start out small and grow bigger". I am so glad I did just that. My sales sucked for the first couple years. Starting out there was months when I never ran my still because I had so much product made up that was not moving. If would have gone big......I would be out of business for sure. Because I took my mentors advice I am now growing like crazy. We manufacture equipment, we do contract bottling, private label, we sell our own brand over several states, we are sending product to China, and I own TWO distilleries.

You can quote me on this one "with in 2-3 years there will be an implosion in craft spirits" there will be a large number of distillers go out of business. The two main causes for going out of business will be..

1. under capitalized

2. lack of shelf space, the battle for shelf space will become super super intense, there is only so much room.

Take care.

[TetonDistillery]

You can quote me on this one "with in 2-3 years there will be an implosion in craft spirits" there will be a large number of distillers go out of business. The two main causes for going out of business will be..

1. under capitalized

2. lack of shelf space, the battle for shelf space will become super super intense, there is only so much room.

Take care.

I would agree with that. There are a lot of under capitalized distilleries operating out there.

It would not surprise me if there are quite a few distilleries shutting down in the next 2-5 years.

We see the articles of new craft distilleries being announced. We see new people introduce themselves here.

But we often don't hear about the shutdowns. But it is definitely happening. How many will fail? 50%?

Nobody should start this business thinking it is easy.

It takes deep pockets to create a solid distillery and successful business.

There is a lot more to it than just making a good product.

[Shindig]

I can't belive 50% are shutting down at this point. If they were where the hell is all the used equipment for sale !!! Haha

I agree that some will be closing but if you compare us to the brewing industry then only time will tell if there is a true big bubble. In our town 2-3 breweries and atleast one winery open each year and they are all doing well , who would have thought. We do live in a major tourist town that brings in a ton of money and that may be part of the equation. I will also say my partner opened a brewey 8 months ago (with other people )in a shithole part of our state and with less than $100k. They just bought another building and have paid off ALL of their equipment and are planning a 1 million expansion next year!

All I can say is I have seen the liqour industry grow and grow even after people have called a bubble. Some do it on a shoe string but have the passion and make it BIG! don't loose heart everyone .

Cheers and happy holidays ?

[3d0g]

Yeah, I don't see a bubble in craft spirits anytime soon. Sure there'll be the mismanaged that go under, and thank goodness - we'll need the equipment, but things are just starting to get interesting. Here in Colorado during my market research this year, I could count on zero hands the number of stores that weren't desperate for more local goods. Many stores are even allocating dedicated shelving for local products.

There's two key reasons for my optimism in our industry... Many craft beer drinkers, who've already clearly demonstrated deep wallets, will expand into spirits seeking new experiences. They won't be afraid of trying new things and they won't have that age=good mentality. I'm also bullish on International distribution. There's a real demand for craft US spirits across Europe right now. Hell, a single shot of Stranahan's gets over 20 euro in Amsterdam these days.

[CJS]

Thanks for the responses everyone, some great ideas are being passed.

Dehner Distillery - I want to say thank you for your candid points. I understood the idea of bigger still = bigger money, and I agree with your guys' point. My approach isn't to go big just for to do it, I'm planning on a larger combination for cost effectiveness in production, time, and in regards to the remainder of my plan and needs for equipment sharing. To be honest, I wish there were more studies available on the economics of this business such as economies of scale, size vs profitability, and recommended location characteristics for the distilling business. That being said the majority of my equipment will be bought and paid off by the time I open, and I'm in the process of another project currently that will help give me some 'floating' capital each month.

TetonVodka - I agree with your thoughts that it takes a lot more than just product to be successful! I'd love to find some write-ups on failed distillery businesses. Not that I'm wishing for the worst for anyone though. I would just like to find some factual info on any that have failed.

Shindig and 3dOg - Thanks for the points. I'd love to see some used quality used equipment come available! lol. Also, I hadn't even thought of export of products. I imagine that will require additional licensing... but it could be another revenue source that I need to look into.

Anyone have thought on market research, determining market viability, and building sales projections?

Thanks again for your thoughts guys! As a newbie just starting on this it's great to hear perspectives from guys already in the business.

Happy Holidays,

C.J.

[Dehner Distillery]

A couple things to think about, like craft beer if you have a cocktail room (some states like Iowa don't allow) you only serve what you make. So it doesn't that long for people to get drunk even if your serving low % drinks. But when your your product is in other states it is on it own. I have never met a broker that couldn't sell the world, but I have never had a broker hit the mark they set...... " Joe we will sell SO MUCH you won't be able to keep up...." BIG FLOP ON THEM.....they failed.. That is why I feel there will be a battle for shelf space. I have 6 products now and 3 more coming on line. Iowa has 10 distilleries now. Example = if each one had 6 items thats 60 pc. .. not that it would happen but lets say all 60 pc went to a different state it would just squeeze everybody else. Now, a more realistic approach is that there's 48 continental states If one distiller out of every 48 states sent one product to all the other states that would squeeze 47 bottles onto the shelves in the battle for shelf space would begin. And because of this I think that's were being undercapitalized will come into play. I just don't think that some of these distilleries will be able to hold out long enough to see their sales actually take off.

I would wholeheartedly agree that people come into this thinking that just because they make a bottle of whatever it's going to sell. It's easy to get it on the shelf, and it's easy to get the first bottle off the shelf, but you have to sell the second bottle. It just blows my mind where people think they can move extremely large amounts of $35 custom vodka or $45 bottles of gin.

It's all just my opinion.

[3d0g]

Colorado is a bit unique with its retail ownership rules, but shelf space honestly isn't the constraining factor. For example, even small shops have 12 or more beer coolers. You've still got to generate the market for your product though. No broker/distributer is going to do that for you.

[bdkolstad]

$3,000 bottle of vodka.

"For the latest edition of the Pristine Water Series, the Stoli team trekked all the way to Chile — specifically, “to a natural spring flowing from the foothills of the Andes mountains,” the brand notes. Of course, you can’t put a vodka made with such water in just any bottle. Stoli packages the Andean Edition in a hand-cut crystal bottle, which is “then nestled in a sustainably sourced Chilean Black Cherry wood case.”"

[Skaalvenn]

Yeah, I don't see a bubble in craft spirits anytime soon.

Personally I sort of do, but it has more to do with the current boom of distilleries aging whiskey. I may be wrong, and I have zero credentials to back up this opinion but I just don't see the demand being met by the supply of whiskey that is going to be flowing in a couple years. There's a lot of craft distilleries putting all their eggs into the barrel shaped basket with plans of selling 2 year whiskey for $60/bottle. I love good whiskey, but I don't have a love for paying through the nose for young product that was taken out of the barrel the moment it hit the age requirement simply because the distillery needed to recoup some $.

Again, this is pure speculation and I may be completely wrong.

Skaalvenn.. Thanks for the response! And also thank you for your service! It's great seeing a military guy in business.

Thanks CJS!

[MDH]

$3,000 bottle of vodka.

"For the latest edition of the Pristine Water Series, the Stoli team trekked all the way to Chile — specifically, “to a natural spring flowing from the foothills of the Andes mountains,” the brand notes. Of course, you can’t put a vodka made with such water in just any bottle. Stoli packages the Andean Edition in a hand-cut crystal bottle, which is “then nestled in a sustainably sourced Chilean Black Cherry wood case.”"

Exactly, if there's a market for this, there's a market for everything.

No wonder Yuri Schefler is riding around in a yacht worth a third of a billion dollars.

Anyway, on the topic, I think this is definitely a time saver. Think of it this way - When you are doing fruit mashes, that are notoriously less high yield than grain, you can either run something through your small still many times and spend much more time filling the still, emptying it, waiting for heat up, cooldown etc, or you can run it all through at once, making your transition from low wines to spirits much faster. It will end up saving you money in the longrun especially if you end up hiring labor to help you with distillation just because of all the time. If I could, I'd have a setup where the stripping still is a whopping ten times larger, just because I'd like to do more esoteric, low yield distillations like Rowan Berry or Pumpkin without having to waste several days away.