building a still versus buying

[Friday]

I'm considering building a pot still as opposed to buying one. I'm currently in the planning stages and I'm looking for a little advice. What are the obstacles to building your own? Are there regulatory hassles? Because it's being used in food preparation, do you need a welding certificate? How exactly do you go about registering it? Is it automatic with the ttb app?

What material would be best: copper or a stainless pot with copper in the vapor path? Stainless would be a lot easier for me to work with, not to mention more durable.

What capacity? I see a lot of folks using 100 gallon or so stills. I'm thinking a 60 gallon pot should do what I need and it would be easier to handle and fire but I don't want to suddenly be caught without any spare capacity.

So is going twice as big as you think your going to need a prudent thing to do? Or should I just build a new one if the time comes?

I'm also considering running a worm coil as a condenser. Are there any drawbacks to using a worm on a still this size?

Thanks for the advice,

Friday

[lboe]

I'd say building a still is a HUGE undertaking and not something I'd ever attempt. If this is something you think you want to pursue, I'd talk with some of the still manufacturers so you can get an idea for the technology that really goes into one (it's more than a boiling pot). Even the basics like metal choice are important. You always want copper where it is hot (going up) and stainless where it is cooling (going down). The choice and quality of metal actually has an effect on your final product since copper binds with sulfur compounds.

Then there are sizing questions. Sizing will determine not only your capacity but your heat input and your run times. Again, this is something a professional still maker would know.

And then there's the pesky safety question. I'd want to be REALLY certain that the still was welded properly and that the heating elements were correctly attached and aligned to avoid a possible explosion. Again, something the still makers would know how to do.

Again, this is NOT something I'd ever attempt although I know some have.

I'm considering building a pot still as opposed to buying one. I'm currently in the planning stages and I'm looking for a little advice. What are the obstacles to building your own? Are there regulatory hassles? Because it's being used in food preparation, do you need a welding certificate? How exactly do you go about registering it? Is it automatic with the ttb app?

What material would be best: copper or a stainless pot with copper in the vapor path? Stainless would be a lot easier for me to work with, not to mention more durable.

What capacity? I see a lot of folks using 100 gallon or so stills. I'm thinking a 60 gallon pot should do what I need and it would be easier to handle and fire but I don't want to suddenly be caught without any spare capacity.

So is going twice as big as you think your going to need a prudent thing to do? Or should I just build a new one if the time comes?

I'm also considering running a worm coil as a condenser. Are there any drawbacks to using a worm on a still this size?

Thanks for the advice,

Friday

[Roadstarwizard]

First off if you are in the United States yes there are alot of regulatory factors I would suggest that you look into the TTB web site to answer all those questions along with reading here as those requirement are the same as we have to abide by. IF your out of the US i would suggest looking into MileHighDistilling.com as most of your answers can be answered there along with the Amphora Society.

[coop]

I'm considering building a pot still as opposed to buying one. I'm currently in the planning stages and I'm looking for a little advice. What are the obstacles to building your own? Are there regulatory hassles? Because it's being used in food preparation, do you need a welding certificate? How exactly do you go about registering it? Is it automatic with the ttb app?

What material would be best: copper or a stainless pot with copper in the vapor path? Stainless would be a lot easier for me to work with, not to mention more durable.

What capacity? I see a lot of folks using 100 gallon or so stills. I'm thinking a 60 gallon pot should do what I need and it would be easier to handle and fire but I don't want to suddenly be caught without any spare capacity.

So is going twice as big as you think your going to need a prudent thing to do? Or should I just build a new one if the time comes?

I'm also considering running a worm coil as a condenser. Are there any drawbacks to using a worm on a still this size?

Thanks for the advice,

Friday

First off you will be needing countless approvals affixed to any of your equipment. UL, Fire, NPI to name a few. Without these approvals the local authorities will not even let you try out your new still. Gas or Electric companies will not even allow you to hook up your your equipment. Even some of the European companies do not have all the approvals required for the US compliance's. If you do not live in a very rural area you are in for a never ending battle to get approvals. The ttb does not care about these but you would need to verify capacity, process and other things with them. If I were going to to do this in an attempt to market your finished products to the public, do not try it. A huge can of worms is all you would be opening. Coop

[helocat]

Can’t comment on the legalities with the TTB, that is just research with them.

I have also given this a lot of thought and the jury is still out on it with me. I currently own and operate a business that does metal work (not sheet metal or pressure vessels) so I have a bit of knowledge to start with, but at the same time lack a lot of what would be needed to pull it off. If you are thinking this will be a cheaper way to acquire a still, unless you have the practical experience with sheet metals and making pressure vessels this would not be a cheaper way to go. Sure a new commercial still properly set up starts in the $40-50K range but just start adding up the cost of sheet copper. There is a reason meth heads out there are stripping wires from anything not tied down, copper is off the chart expensive these days. Now the metal fabrication I do now, I know the learning curve also comes with a scrap rate and that means $$. One mistake with expensive materials can send you well past the cost of a commercial built, supported and warranted product.

If you do make something, keep in mind you have to use a food grade filler rod for your TIG welding. Also if you make anything that is to take a pressure at all, it will have to be certified as will the welder that put it together. (Like a steam jacket or steam heating coils inside the primary pot)

I can see making hogs heads and general support equipment (racks, drains, drier) but the still its self, just not sure it’s worth it.

Mark

[Wilder]

I'd say building a still is a HUGE undertaking and not something I'd ever attempt. If this is something you think you want to pursue, I'd talk with some of the still manufacturers so you can get an idea for the technology that really goes into one (it's more than a boiling pot). Even the basics like metal choice are important. You always want copper where it is hot (going up) and stainless where it is cooling (going down). The choice and quality of metal actually has an effect on your final product since copper binds with sulfur compounds.

Then there are sizing questions. Sizing will determine not only your capacity but your heat input and your run times. Again, this is something a professional still maker would know.

And then there's the pesky safety question. I'd want to be REALLY certain that the still was welded properly and that the heating elements were correctly attached and aligned to avoid a possible explosion. Again, something the still makers would know how to do.

Again, this is NOT something I'd ever attempt although I know some have.

Where are you getting your information. I was under the impression, from some other sources, that stainless bottom with a copper top is the way to go?

[Friday]

I have the skills and resources to build a small direct fired pot still. So building it isn't a problem, but it's begining to look like a regulatory nightmare.

How can the colonel sell a 60 gallon pot still for less then 5k with all the regulations?

[coop]

I have the skills and resources to build a small direct fired pot still. So building it isn't a problem, but it's begining to look like a regulatory nightmare.

How can the colonel sell a 60 gallon pot still for less then 5k with all the regulations?

This still is just a copper pot, no electrical, no heat source, no motors. Just a pot. Everything else is up to you. You will have to supply all approvals your self. In towns that have codes this might become the problem we are talking about. coop

[Valley Spirits Lee]

I am a bit shocked at the responses.

Where is the American ingenuity in these answers? The Backwoods Moonshiner, I am going to do it attitude? Just because we want to enjoy the fruits of our labor of love in the open sunlight and make it legal does not mean we should stop trying to be innovative.

I will admit that I don't know everything (maybe not even that much). I have nearly 30 years experience in the equipment industry.

UL - this is required if you have a contract with the Federal Government and it is in your contract (most do not require it). Other than that it is a preference and truly under all the regulations is saying you buy equipment that was made by "Union Labor" to specific standards (does not stand for Union Labor - I believe it is United Laboratories, and is regarding electrical equipment).

Pressure Vessel and Certified Welders. Yes if you are building a pressure vessel you need to have the welding done by a P.V. Cert welder. My still (yes I am building my own 45 gallon still) is not a pressure vessel. The end is always open and has no way of sealing it to allow pressure to build up. I am going to seal it up and pressure test it while I am building it simply to make sure there are no leaks.

Also just for safety's sake I am going to put a 5 p.s.i. pop off valve on it.

You don't need ( this is not legal advice ) any approvals affixed to any equipment you build. Go to a factory and find one on any piece of equipment in it. I can't and I have been working in food manufacturing my whole adult life. I purchased equipment from many companies for many years. O.S.H.A. is all that is required. (again, don't put a valve on the end of your condenser and it is not a pressure vessel - to me- I would argue it with any inspector and have argued with armed inspectors onsite, if it is not in the reg's they can't enforce their opinion).

You must build something to meet codes, yes. Or if you have a problem you will really have a problem. It is called Negligence. Since it is not pressure vessel there are no codes / C.F.R.'s I know of.

Your issue (to me) comes not from the still itself but the ventilation system, and sprinkler system you will need to pass the Fire Marshall.

Call one of the still manufacturers and see if their stills come standard U.L. approved or anything else. Ask what safety codes do they follow in still manufacturing and look them up. I believe you will find, if you can do it, do it.

You should check with the local Fire Marshall so you know what they are going to require.

Lee

[coop]

I am a bit shocked at the responses.

Where is the American ingenuity in these answers? The Backwoods Moonshiner, I am going to do it attitude? Just because we want to enjoy the fruits of our labor of love in the open sunlight and make it legal does not mean we should stop trying to be innovative.

I will admit that I don't know everything (maybe not even that much). I have nearly 30 years experience in the equipment industry.

UL - this is required if you have a contract with the Federal Government and it is in your contract (most do not require it). Other than that it is a preference and truly under all the regulations is saying you buy equipment that was made by "Union Labor" to specific standards (does not stand for Union Labor - I believe it is United Laboratories, and is regarding electrical equipment).

Pressure Vessel and Certified Welders. Yes if you are building a pressure vessel you need to have the welding done by a P.V. Cert welder. My still (yes I am building my own 45 gallon still) is not a pressure vessel. The end is always open and has no way of sealing it to allow pressure to build up. I am going to seal it up and pressure test it while I am building it simply to make sure there are no leaks.

Also just for safety's sake I am going to put a 5 p.s.i. pop off valve on it.

You don't need ( this is not legal advice ) any approvals affixed to any equipment you build. Go to a factory and find one on any piece of equipment in it. I can't and I have been working in food manufacturing my whole adult life. I purchased equipment from many companies for many years. O.S.H.A. is all that is required. (again, don't put a valve on the end of your condenser and it is not a pressure vessel - to me- I would argue it with any inspector and have argued with armed inspectors onsite, if it is not in the reg's they can't enforce their opinion).

You must build something to meet codes, yes. Or if you have a problem you will really have a problem. It is called Negligence. Since it is not pressure vessel there are no codes / C.F.R.'s I know of.

Your issue (to me) comes not from the still itself but the ventilation system, and sprinkler system you will need to pass the Fire Marshall.

Call one of the still manufacturers and see if their stills come standard U.L. approved or anything else. Ask what safety codes do they follow in still manufacturing and look them up. I believe you will find, if you can do it, do it.

You should check with the local Fire Marshall so you know what they are going to require.

Lee

Let me get this strait, a person unknown to any of us, ask for help and opinions, from a professional site and you think it has something to do with "Moonshiners" and I can do it attitude?

UL has nothing to do with union labor, and OSHA is a government organization dealing with on the job safety.

Where is your I can do it attitude when from your own web site you claim "The Ultra Premium Vodka from a completely automated, computer controlled system. Many others claim to have high tech Vodka but mine really will be." Sounds a little like the pot calling the kettle black. Just asking. In the end you agreed with us all that is important to do things right the first time and you will need all the approvals we mentioned. thanks, Coop

[Valley Spirits Lee]

Let me get this strait, a person unknown to any of us, ask for help and opinions, from a professional site and you think it has something to do with "Moonshiners" and I can do it attitude?

UL has nothing to do with union labor, and OSHA is a government organization dealing with on the job safety.

Where is your I can do it attitude when from your own web site you claim "The Ultra Premium Vodka from a completely automated, computer controlled system. Many others claim to have high tech Vodka but mine really will be." Sounds a little like the pot calling the kettle black. Just asking. In the end you agreed with us all that is important to do things right the first time and you will need all the approvals we mentioned. thanks, Coop

Hold the bus.

Coop - too far, too personal and too public. You don't even know me.

My comment of-

"I am a bit shocked at the responses.

Where is the American ingenuity in these answers? The Backwoods Moonshiner, I am going to do it attitude? Just because we want to enjoy the fruits of our labor of love in the open sunlight and make it legal does not mean we should stop trying to be innovative."

SIMPLY SAYS "from a group of people who spend their lives figuring out how to do something most other people can't even understand, and do it well, I would have expected that most people would have said something more encouraging and not - don't do it - it is a still, not the space shuttle"

I would expect everyone here to encourage people to learn and try things. Isn't that the intent of this forum?

UL - Underwriters Laboratories - "requires" equipment manufacturers to use "UNION LABOR" _"BE UNIONIZED" in the manufacturing of equipment if it carries the UL label.

O.S.H.A. Yes, on the job safety, including the design and safety features on equipment, including boilers, pressure vessels etc...

As for automating the process of making Vodka. Before one can program a computer controlled system to do the process with precision, the person writing the code to control the program must first have intimate knowledge and experience performing that process to be able to write scenarios of control for all the possible problems that can happen during the process.

As for the person this was all originally intended for. Don't let this keep you from posting questions. If you are willing to learn, dig, ask, try, then do so. Good Luck!

Lee

[Denver Distiller]

I am a bit shocked at the responses.

Where is the American ingenuity in these answers? The Backwoods Moonshiner, I am going to do it attitude? Just because we want to enjoy the fruits of our labor of love in the open sunlight and make it legal does not mean we should stop trying to be innovative............

Pressure Vessel and Certified Welders. Yes if you are building a pressure vessel you need to have the welding done by a P.V. Cert welder. My still (yes I am building my own 45 gallon still) is not a pressure vessel. The end is always open and has no way of sealing it to allow pressure to build up. I am going to seal it up and pressure test it while I am building it simply to make sure there are no leaks.

Also just for safety's sake I am going to put a 5 p.s.i. pop off valve on it.

Lee

Respectfully, while you aren't trying to build the space shuttle, stills can, and have, blow someone's head off, or implode, or spray CIP fluid all over you.

I respectfully submit that the concept that your still will "always be open" are famous last words waiting to happen. I have seen more than a few of the cheap stills on the market that don't have any safety equipment on them whatsoever. No pressure protection. No vacuum protection...which is just as important, imho.

Air breaks can get clogged from overboils (especially if you've got herbs in there)... particularly with all the stills out there without sight glasses. Look how narrow some of the lyne arms are out there. You can't tell me that you think that they can't clog. Then there's the steam jackets I've seen without pressure relief, vacuum relief, and Y strainers upstream to trap large particles that can clog inlets, outlets, or steam traps. One distiller I know had a lyne arm shipped to them that was clogged with some kind of packing. An explosion waiting to happen. Their pot didn't have a pressure gauge, and didn't have pressure relief. It could have ended their distilling career before it got started.

Then there's the CIP process, where you can indeed put pressure on that pot, and very, very quickly. Same goes for vacuum. Same goes for your jackets, if you have them.

I have a whole boatload of stories from the brewing industry about how operator error and poor design have led to implosions, explosions, and chemical burns.

This stuff may not be the space shuttle, but it doesn't mean that you can't get hurt if you don't know what you're doing. One look at the section on cleaning at ADI will tell you that real fast. You're taking your 30 years of experience for granted. You know more than you realize.

Just an opinion.

[Valley Spirits Lee]

Listen to Coop.

All very accurate.

I can attest first hand to horrible things happening when you mix energy, equipment and flesh.

15 psi can take a 1200 lb steel boiler and launch it over a hundred feet, killing the mechanic near it.

Maybe I do take my experience for granted and unwittingly place a too positive opinion of "try things" that goes, without the investigation of cleanup after explosions and injuries and the learning that has come from them.

Thank you Coop.

Respectfully,

Lee

[Max Action]

I am a bit shocked at the responses.

Where is the American ingenuity in these answers? The Backwoods Moonshiner, I am going to do it attitude? Just because we want to enjoy the fruits of our labor of love in the open sunlight and make it legal does not mean we should stop trying to be innovative.

I agree with Lee. It's disappointing that people in general are becoming so risk averse.

[Max Action]

Looking at the still manufacturers listed in the equipment directory, its seems the main options are $100,000 professional systems or homemade-style systems under $10K. Are there any alternatives somewhere in the middle that I'm missing? Please feel free to message me if you have other suggestions.

I would also be curious about the homemade option. Assuming I could find a qualified coppersmith/boilermaker in my area, where could I find plans for a good engineered system?

[Denver Distiller]

I agree with Lee. It's disappointing that people in general are becoming so risk averse.

Well, I'm certainly not trying to stop anyone from innovating. I just don't want anyone to get hurt, is all. I like distillers.

[Chip Tate]

It can be done and approved, but it probably isn't for everybody. Pounding out copper 1/8" or thicker takes some doing even once annealed and you definitely need to have a good understanding of proper joint technique, alloy metallurgy, and especially safety considerations. The point made about pressure is worth thinking about too. Even if you don't blow your still up like a grenade, what if you have an undetected leak that could fill the room with high proof fumes--boom. There are ways to test for and guard against that kind of think, of course, but be paranoid when thinking about design of the whole system. Finally, regs and codes aside, what is acceptable or not is really up to your local inspector . Whether he/ she is right or wrong almost doesn't matter many times. We are in a small town and had to work with our inspector for months to get approval. Ironically, none of the real safety issues were even a question. It was stupid stuff like the height of our drain pipes, etc. We could have pushed harder, but would have risked winning the battle and losing the war as we were finishing out the distillery. Just my 2 cents.

Chip Tate