JohninWV Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Hopefully, we will be operating in February or March and I'm not sure I have the best plan for my stillage. We will mostly be using a mixture of corn and wheat that's been through a hammer mill. I'm guessing 4000 liters a week or more will be my immediate maximum. I had planned to pump the spent grain to an outside tank and then have it hauled off to a local farmer for animal feed. He was going to dump it on a large concrete area that has some slope and allow the water to drain off. There's probably two problems ( at least) to this strategy: 1) If it sits in my tank outside too long, it's gonna freeze up. While not as cold as you guys and gals up north, it gets cold here in WV. 2) If it's as soupy as I have seen, the farmer might lose all of it down the slope. I know others are giving it to the farmer, but what's your process? What kind of equipment are you using to transport the stillage and/or how are you getting it dry? I saw a post from Doug Mackenzie about some sort of fabricated tub. I'd love to see or hear more about it. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denver Distiller Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 How big is your still? Do you have extra room in your distillery, or are you totally out of space? What kind of equipment does your farmer have? Forks put onto a tractor? Flatbed truck with a tilt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helocat Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 I am wondering about this as well. Is there a decent market to justify a drier system to bag and sell the spent grain? Wet, is there a marketable value or just given away? I am wondering if one just gravity drains as much as possible then just load it into reusable plastic drums. (forklift) Yes I have read The Practical Distiller and don’t really plan on running a hog farm on the side! I am sure that was the ticket back in the day. 250gl still Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohninWV Posted December 14, 2009 Author Share Posted December 14, 2009 I have a 650 liter still. There's room in the building but would like to keep it outside if possible....just 'cause... I have forklifts and my farmer has stuff to unload it with but I'm not sure if he has a mix truck or some old milk tank or something that might also help him. He's got a flatbed truck too. I could also buy a dump trailer or some other vehicle if my plans need to be changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coop Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 I have a 650 liter still. There's room in the building but would like to keep it outside if possible....just 'cause... I have forklifts and my farmer has stuff to unload it with but I'm not sure if he has a mix truck or some old milk tank or something that might also help him. He's got a flatbed truck too. I could also buy a dump trailer or some other vehicle if my plans need to be changed. Is this spent grain leftover after distilling or are you separating the wash before distilling? Coop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
absaroka Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 I get rid of mine two ways: put it in a 600 gallon plastic spray tank mounted on skids and loaded on a trailer. It is taken away to a landscape nursery (trees, shrubs, some sod, etc.). A trash pump is used to pump out the stillage on a field. When it gets colder out, obviously this is harder to do and not necessary for the nursery. Option two is a pig farmer that takes it in 55 gallon plastic drums. I process 1000-2000 gallons of mash per week, so sometimes not all of it is used. I'm hoping to get some acreage to spray this on someday... crops grow like weeds when fed the stillage! If you are wanting to separate the grain from the liquid, I just talked to Rob Sherman at Vendome the other day and they are making a drum tumbler that separates the solids from the mash/stillage and dumps them into a portable tote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denver Distiller Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 John in WV, I'd use abasaroka's option #2. SInce you're just dealing with wheat and corn, it'll be easy to pump them into plastic drums with a 1" hose. The drums have screw caps that you can seal, and then simply leave the barrels inside on the few days when it's below freezing., and outside when it's not. Nice and easy setup, and you should be able to fit a single batch in 3 barrels (or 4 barrels if you want to make them easier to move). What's really great is that there's no odor issues, and your farmer can show up when it is convenient....this isn't the case with an open top bin. Just an opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denver Distiller Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 By the way, it's nice to see so many whiskey distillers here, doing their thing. Happy and safe distilling to you all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohninWV Posted December 14, 2009 Author Share Posted December 14, 2009 Coop.... It's the stillage coming out of the still....I'm distilling on the grain. Bryan, Both of your ideas sound good to me, but that's a bunch of 55 gallon drums isn't it? If it's all not used, what are you doing with the other stillage? Do you know what price range Vendome is talking about with the tumbler? Thanks all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HBD Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 I've been dumping the spent grains into 55 gal barrels. I leave it outside as I don't have to worry about freezing. If I don't already have someone picking it up, CRAIGSLIST is awesome. Post it up, you'll get about twenty hits for the grain every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowdery Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 What I can share is the experience of the big boys. They view stillage as a waste disposal problem, certainly not as an income stream. Drying it makes it more marketable, but drying uses a lot of energy, so you're lucky if you break even. For the most part, the two options have been to dry it to sell it as animal feed, or give it away wet for use as animal feed. At Beam Global, specifically at Maker's Mark, they're working on some new systems that are both more cost effective and better for the environment. I think there are microbes involved. At least one large distillery was dumping its slop into the city sewer system, with the full knowledge and approval of the city. The distiller told me the city told him they actually needed more organics in their sewage, so it was good for them, but I have recently been told that distillery is back to giving it to farmers. When you give it to farmers, you do so in liquid form and they provide the transportation. In parts of Kentucky and Tennessee this symbiotic relationship is well established. It's one of the reasons why those areas also have a lot of cattle and hog operations. Interestingly, thoroughbred horses do not eat distillery slop. The problem they're having now is that with bourbon doing well and production going up, farming on the downturn, and the distilleries tending to be in areas that are becoming more suburban and less rural, there aren't enough farmers located close enough to take all the stillage that's available. Another problem, for people who dry it and sell it, is that the fuel ethanol operations have the exact same by-product and they're flooding the market with it, depressing prices. The farms either feed it to the livestock as it is, ideally still warm, or let it settle so they can pump off some of the water, making a thicker gruel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohninWV Posted December 15, 2009 Author Share Posted December 15, 2009 Thanks Chuck. We are in an area with lots of cattle. Shouldn't have much problem, but the farmers seem to have a problem with it wet....or at least, wet like soup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
absaroka Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 John, Not sure on the price for the tumbler, Rob was just mentioning all of the cool stuff they are putting together for complete systems and that was one of them. Shoot him a quick email and tell him I sent you... he's a busy guy so allow some time to pass for him to get back to you. If you call they might even tell you over the phone without trying to track Rob down. Get in touch with a university and see if they'll do a test on your stillage. That way you can tell farmers, or whoever, the content of what is there and that usually scores big points and alleviates some questions or fears. Most times the tests are free or cost very little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowdery Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Thanks Chuck. We are in an area with lots of cattle. Shouldn't have much problem, but the farmers seem to have a problem with it wet....or at least, wet like soup. Like I said, in Kentucky and Tennessee they've been doing it for generations. It's second nature to them. If you can, you might want to go to Kentucky, document how the farmers there handle wet slop, so you can school your farmers. It will be strange to their cattle and hogs at first too. The thing is, drying requires a significant initial investment and a significant ongoing investment and with all of that, it's still waste disposal. You'll never make money from it. So the easiest and cheapest way to dispose of it that is responsible will be the best thing for you. I would think that because you have cattle, you're halfway there. In the old days in Kentucky, the distilleries had their own feed lots a discrete but convenient distance from the distillery, connected by a long, sloping trough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coop Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Like I said, in Kentucky and Tennessee they've been doing it for generations. It's second nature to them. If you can, you might want to go to Kentucky, document how the farmers there handle wet slop, so you can school your farmers. It will be strange to their cattle and hogs at first too. The thing is, drying requires a significant initial investment and a significant ongoing investment and with all of that, it's still waste disposal. You'll never make money from it. So the easiest and cheapest way to dispose of it that is responsible will be the best thing for you. I would think that because you have cattle, you're halfway there. In the old days in Kentucky, the distilleries had their own feed lots a discrete but convenient distance from the distillery, connected by a long, sloping trough. We here made a gravity flowing grain separator. We pump spent grains in to it, let it set and drain for about 3 days and it is dry enough to shovel it out into barrels. It is damp and will freeze but dry enough to scoop out to feed livestock. Coop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohninWV Posted December 15, 2009 Author Share Posted December 15, 2009 Coop.... Got any pictures of your separator? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coop Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Yes I do but will have to find them. I will try to e mail to you. Coop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom's Foolery Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Yes I do but will have to find them. I will try to e mail to you. Coop Coop - if you don't mind ... please cc copies of the pictures to me in Cleveland. Thanks, Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohninWV Posted December 16, 2009 Author Share Posted December 16, 2009 Thanks Coop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denver Distiller Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 I am wondering about this as well. Is there a decent market to justify a drier system to bag and sell the spent grain? Wet, is there a marketable value or just given away? I am wondering if one just gravity drains as much as possible then just load it into reusable plastic drums. (forklift) Yes I have read The Practical Distiller and don’t really plan on running a hog farm on the side! I am sure that was the ticket back in the day. 250gl still Mark There isn't a market for dried spent grains/stillage (DDG...dried and centrifuged) unless your distillery is huge. Nice rule of thumb is if your distillery is big enough to warrant a CO2 recovery system, then it might make sense to have a spent grains drier. CO2 recovery systems start at a couple hundred thousand dollars, and you can do the math to figure out how much CO2 you need to recover to make that investment make sense. Cowdery is 100% right. Leave the spent grains handling to the farmers. Spending any more labor time than the time it takes to pump out your still is money and time wasted that could be used in distilling or sales. It should be a 10 minute per day operation with your 250 gallon still, and you'll be left with 4 or 5 sealed plastic barrels full of sanitary, odor-free feed that a farmer can pick up at his or her convenience. The brewers who have visited our distilleries over the years are beyond jealous that us distillers can simply pump the stuff out in 10 minutes into a closed container, rather than screw around with lauter tuns, shovels, and smelly open top spent grain bins. Remember, too, that if you're in the middle of nowhere, stillage/spent grain attracts elk and deer. You'll need secure containers. Smart farmers will be falling all over themselves to get your stillage. Not only is the stuff free for them, it's an A+ feed for their animals. Their cows will produce more milk, and their chickens will produce more eggs (chickens are particularly fond of the rootlets/acrospires in malted barley.....this has happened with every farmer I've ever used over the years. If they complain about it being wet, then move on to the next farmer who understands what free feed means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CFry Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 I second Denver Distiller's general thoughts. ...Leave the spent grains handling to the farmers... Smart farmers will be falling all over themselves to get your stillage. Not only is the stuff free for them, it's an A+ feed for their animals. Their cows will produce more milk, and their chickens will produce more eggs (chickens are particularly fond of the rootlets/acrospires in malted barley.....this has happened with every farmer I've ever used over the years. If they complain about it being wet, then move on to the next farmer who understands what free feed means. Cows love wet cake. If a rancher already uses DGGs or wet cake...they could possibly mix in the residue, thereby avoiding any drying or other type of processing. It may not be the most beneficial for the rancher, but it could play a role in establishing a relationship. A relationship in which the rancher would grow the grains you desire (organically?) at a reasonable rate and receive the residue might be beneficial for both parties. CFry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohninWV Posted December 16, 2009 Author Share Posted December 16, 2009 I have a local farmer supplying organic grains, but I don't think I can give them back to enzymes and yeast being added during the process. Don't I have to get certified to give him back an organic product? I'm really liking the 55 gallon drum deal...just gotta have a bunch of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coop Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 OK I found the photos. Send me your e mail address to coop2@sopris.net and I will forward photos to you. Coop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenstone Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 Where are you sourcing your 55 gallon plastic drums for the spent grain? Never mind, quite a few vendors out there now that I've looked around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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