porter Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 We've perrused the TTB for info on the subject of using malt extract for primary fermentation base, can't find a thing. Has anyone else here had any experience with the TTB and the use of malt extract? It's a bit higher cost, but the higher cost outweighs the added labor when figuring storage, shipment, processing, etc. of whole grain. And we purchase wholesale direct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billowens Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 It is a 100% malt what is problem with making single whiskey? I'm all for it bill@distilling.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porter Posted January 25, 2010 Author Share Posted January 25, 2010 And that's my point. As long as we use a single malt extract, no fermentible additives, I can't find there to be any reason why it can't be listed as a 'single malt' product. BUT, rather than ask a TTB person for thoughts, I would like to see if anyone else has personal experience with the TTB and this issue. If so, what was the outcome? And if using malt extract with other blends, such as rye or wheat, I understand it can't be a single malt, but will the TTB even allow it. So, anyone with experience on this issue???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadstarwizard Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 I agree with Bill on this I dont see why a problem would arrise but thank you foar asking as I do was wondering about this and felt it would be a better way with time and space mgt for me. Working on the Investor issue right now. I was looking at the fact I could order extract in at 3300 lbs and stack that 3 high. This would be a large space savings and give me the ability to have a smaller space and get away with more barrel storage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scohar Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 I can't see how the TTB would care. You could ferment from carrot extracts if you wanted to for all they care. And if it's malt, it's malt on the label. But a call to the formulation people might be warranted before diving in on the labels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beauport Bob Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 Have you asked the vendor to research? If it expands the the products marketability they should want good information rather than a customers say so or not. Likely they would have the resources to get that good information. They should be excited about the potential. I'd be interested. BR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 Porter, What company are you dealing with that sells the extract? Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denver Distiller Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 If you read the CFR's under Standards of Identity for whiskey, you'll find that the reg's never specify if the corn, rye, barley, or wheat is/isn't cleaned, dried, deculmed, flaked, steeped, malted, filtered, dehydrated or kilned. With two exceptions....Malt Whiskey or Malted Rye Whiskey (why they don't mention malted wheat is beyond me....maybe no historical need for it), which needs 51% of said malted grain in order for it to be labeled Malted Rye or Barley Whiskey. But the rest of the types of whiskey, imho, are fair game. IMHO, you can use whatever of corn, rye, barley, or wheat you'd like. Plainly, the TTB doesn't care what type of corn etc. you use. If it did, they'd get more specific (perhaps you can find further definitions buried somewhere, but I've read the whole document and can't find any definitions related to this issue). Further, you will never have to submit a formula to the TTB for domestically produced unflavored whiskey, so this is all a bit moot. A lawyer could drive a truck through the loopholes in the SOD's. Just one man's opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwydion Stone Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 A lawyer could drive a truck through the loopholes in the SOD's. And they do. You don't even have to be a lawyer; so do many producers. For everyone's easy reference, I've posted the whole CFR section on Standards of Identity here. As Todd points out, it says nothing of the source, and there's no standard on the use of the term "single malt". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porter Posted January 26, 2010 Author Share Posted January 26, 2010 Porter, What company are you dealing with that sells the extract? Jeff Have our own retail home brewing supply shop, most of our products come from Crosby-Baker. Extracts come in small 3lb. cans, 33lb head-paks, and 600lb drums. The only malt extracts I have ever seen, domestic or import, are barley and barley/wheat blend, nothing for rye or corn. Oh, so easy to use when you don't spend half a day at least in processing the large amount of grains. And, since your aren't processing the grains with all the variables involved, you can repeat formulas over and over. You also don't have to think of where to dispose of spent grains. Open the drum tap and measure out what you need, by pound or volume. I agree it costs more, but unless you are set up with conical fermenters, etc, for large grain handling, it just makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadstarwizard Posted January 26, 2010 Share Posted January 26, 2010 Porter, What company are you dealing with that sells the extract? Jeff Hello Jeff, Here is a link to what I am have been looking at via Briess http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Orderinfo/Packaging_Options_Liquid.htm#Bulk And have been considering that this is the company to use to get it. http://www.brewerssupplygroup.com/MaltExtract.html Here is the info I found that made me thing that the totes of extract would be a good thing. http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Orderinfo/Liquid_Totes.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porter Posted January 26, 2010 Author Share Posted January 26, 2010 Briess is a good domestic product, although not any cheaper than import stuff. And the 'tote' is a good way to go, although most small shops don't have the equipment (pallet lift) to stack those things. That's why I mentioned the 600lb drum as it's easily rolled and hoisted on a small frame to a filling station. Don't even think of pumping this stuff. At least I've never seen any pump that could handle it at room temp. Watch your shelf life, if you can't use an entire container (bucket, drum or tote) in 2 weeks it can/will start to ferment on it's own once opened. Some shops do pressurize the container with inert gas to serve out from the container, thereby keeping oxy and airborne contaminates from entering. If you don't, 2 weeks at room temp max. and that would be pushing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beauport Bob Posted January 26, 2010 Share Posted January 26, 2010 There usually are a couple of grain suppliers at the ADI conference. I hope they should be prepared to speak on this. especially if they monitor this site! Then we all can talk to each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porter Posted January 26, 2010 Author Share Posted January 26, 2010 There usually are a couple of grain suppliers at the ADI conference. I hope they should be prepared to speak on this. especially if they monitor this site! Then we all can talk to each other. What would suspect them to comment on? I would think we would like to see the actual malt extract makers at the conference. If this were something that took off it would be up to them to keep up with domestic production. Currently Briess is the only producer in the US. It really isn't the grain suppliers best interest for you to use extract, they'll sell less grain From a yield standpoint, the beer community will agree that a small business can't get the yield from grain the extract makers can. Beer folks need the ability to mix grains for styles, distillers don't, not for single malt anyway. What is needed is to get the extract makers to produce the rye, corn, etc. malts for the distilling industry. I think their missing an entire new market for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tom Posted January 26, 2010 Share Posted January 26, 2010 What would suspect them to comment on? I would think we would like to see the actual malt extract makers at the conference. If this were something that took off it would be up to them to keep up with domestic production. Currently Briess is the only producer in the US. It really isn't the grain suppliers best interest for you to use extract, they'll sell less grain From a yield standpoint, the beer community will agree that a small business can't get the yield from grain the extract makers can. Beer folks need the ability to mix grains for styles, distillers don't, not for single malt anyway. What is needed is to get the extract makers to produce the rye, corn, etc. malts for the distilling industry. I think their missing an entire new market for it. This goes completly against the grain of craft distilling, why would you want to take such a shortcut? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porter Posted January 27, 2010 Author Share Posted January 27, 2010 This goes completly against the grain of craft distilling, why would you want to take such a shortcut? That's an interesting take on the subject. I shouldn't be seen as a shortcut. It's use of a known ingredient. When you purchase a grain brand, you don't know the region the grain is grown in, so characteristics may be different and out of your control. You don't grow the tree to make the barrel. When you find an ingredient you like and want to repeat a profile with don't you depend on obtaining that same brand/type of item each time, not experimenting once you have something that works? Same goes here. There's no shortcuts to a profile here, just obtaining a product of know characteristics. When you say this is a shortcut to craft distilling, you are making the same statement to 75% of the brewing industry as they also use extracts as their baseline ingredient. Take a look at Briess and ask them what their sales of extract is yearly. When they deliver via tanker truck, their moving some volume. And if you don't want to use extract, that's fine, but small timers need to maximize profits. In a 2 or 3 person shop time and labor means profits, even if it costs more up front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuffield Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 We've perrused the TTB for info on the subject of using malt extract for primary fermentation base, can't find a thing. Has anyone else here had any experience with the TTB and the use of malt extract? It's a bit higher cost, but the higher cost outweighs the added labor when figuring storage, shipment, processing, etc. of whole grain. And we purchase wholesale direct. I have tried malt extract. What a disaster!!! Don't go that root if you want to produce any spirit worth aging or drinking. Trust me, the spirit has a toffee aroma and horrible taste. Stay with full grain mashes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyerWolf Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 That's an interesting take on the subject. I shouldn't be seen as a shortcut. It's use of a known ingredient. When you purchase a grain brand, you don't know the region the grain is grown in, so characteristics may be different and out of your control. You don't grow the tree to make the barrel. When you find an ingredient you like and want to repeat a profile with don't you depend on obtaining that same brand/type of item each time, not experimenting once you have something that works? Same goes here. There's no shortcuts to a profile here, just obtaining a product of know characteristics. When you say this is a shortcut to craft distilling, you are making the same statement to 75% of the brewing industry as they also use extracts as their baseline ingredient. Take a look at Briess and ask them what their sales of extract is yearly. When they deliver via tanker truck, their moving some volume. And if you don't want to use extract, that's fine, but small timers need to maximize profits. In a 2 or 3 person shop time and labor means profits, even if it costs more up front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyerWolf Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 I don't know what kind of beer or whiskey you boys brew in Missouri but the brewers in Oregon would take offense to your claim that 75% of them use malt extract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porter Posted January 27, 2010 Author Share Posted January 27, 2010 Relating to oregon...that's the area that got me started in brewing. However, in the major metro areas of other parts of the country, the micro-brews have been getting flack from EPA on the spent grain issue. So many simply started with extract. Solved the green-folks breathing down their neck. As for using it instead of grains, I was just asking for input on whether any large scale had tried it. It's working out well so far around here, but it does process different. My main concern was whether the TTB had any problems with it. NUFFIELD----Did you 'cook' the extract in a kettle first? If so, that's probably where you got the toffee flavor. You don't cook extract. It will carmalize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denver Distiller Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 The only way that I'm aware of that malt extract is used in respectable breweries is as a plato bump for Dopplebocks or DIPA's. Most brewing equipment simply isn't designed to make high gravity beers, so the malt extract is used to get a few extra Plato in a starting gravity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porter Posted January 27, 2010 Author Share Posted January 27, 2010 And for those of you who think the statement that a large number of breweries are using extracts is wrong, do a google search on commercial extract brewing. Here's just a couple of links/articles on it. Read the one from MaltProducts, has in interview with Pico Systems, which makes micro-brew systems. They fully advocate it, with very good reasons. http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue1.4/outterson.html http://www.maltproducts.com/news.malt.extract.html So....stands to reason it would be worth a look into it for the micro-distillery biz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tom Posted January 28, 2010 Share Posted January 28, 2010 That's an interesting take on the subject. I shouldn't be seen as a shortcut. It's use of a known ingredient. When you purchase a grain brand, you don't know the region the grain is grown in, so characteristics may be different and out of your control. You don't grow the tree to make the barrel. When you find an ingredient you like and want to repeat a profile with don't you depend on obtaining that same brand/type of item each time, not experimenting once you have something that works? Same goes here. There's no shortcuts to a profile here, just obtaining a product of know characteristics. When you say this is a shortcut to craft distilling, you are making the same statement to 75% of the brewing industry as they also use extracts as their baseline ingredient. Take a look at Briess and ask them what their sales of extract is yearly. When they deliver via tanker truck, their moving some volume. And if you don't want to use extract, that's fine, but small timers need to maximize profits. In a 2 or 3 person shop time and labor means profits, even if it costs more up front. Still a shortcut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porter Posted January 28, 2010 Author Share Posted January 28, 2010 Amusing......This has gotten to be like convincing Harley owners most of their bike's parts are from Japan (they really are), too many lines in the sand being drawn. Just brew the way you like, I started out simply wanting input on whether folks were using extract. As for it being a shortcut, what about those using NGS to simply mix their product and slapping a label on it. Numerous 'distillerys' here in the US don't even have stills on site. They simply mix/blend NGS with ingredients and out the door, that's a true shortcut. Don't bother responding folks.......this is an endless issue apparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwydion Stone Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 I suppose it depends on the individual's idea of what "craft" means, and which craft you're talking about. To use an example I've used here before, it makes as much sense as saying an "artisan baker" should have to mill their own flour. I think it's important, especially within the craft distilling movement, to distinguish the difference between someone who simply re-bottles GNS, or adds flavorings to it and someone who uses GNS as a raw ingredient to make a fully traditional product. There are legitimate and time-honored distilled spirits that start with pre-made products and where those products are considered a raw ingredient. Unfortunately there are too many among us who have a limited knowledge of the breadth of this craft and the different approaches required by products outside their range of interest. And there are still others who ignore the facts even after they know them, or even twist them to their own needs, because they want to use it as a leg up for marketing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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