Foreshot Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 The area that I am targeting to open up in is a very dense residential spot. I know that the TTB is pretty tough on being closer than 50 feet from a residential structure. This is the part I'm having trouble with. Has anyone been able to get approved for being closer than 50 feet? If so what do you think (or know) that allowed this? Did they ask for something (sprinkers etc) or did it just happen without knowing why? The reason is a very good spot just opened up at a decent rate, but the back of the building is less than 50 feet from some houses. Their rear yards abuts the building. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluestar Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 In urban areas, you can even be adjacent, provided there is complete security and firewall separation between the two buildings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silk City Distillers Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 I would imagine your local government would be more concerned about 50 feet than the TTB would, especially if the residential properties exist on separate legal parcels of land. The TTB would have absolutely nothing to say about sprinklers. We are on the edge of an industrial zone, backing a residential street (houses are across the street from the rear of the property) and directly adjacent to a residential home. There might be 5 or 6 residential properties that are in the 50 foot radius from the edge of the property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foreshot Posted September 19, 2017 Author Share Posted September 19, 2017 Wow - that changes things. Thanks guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhdunbar Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 I will respond late to this conversation. If a residence is located on a separate property from the distillery, then, regardless of the proximity, TTB has not reason to take exception, . If the proposed distillery is located on the same piece of property as a residence, then TTB decides on a case by case basis whether to approve the location. I am not aware of a 50-foot rule. Proximity matters, but the real question is whether the location would create potential administrative difficulties, i.e., whether or not the residents might successfully claim that the proposed DSP premises is so bound to the residence that the right of privacy they have in the residence extends to the DSP. That depends on a number of factors, not just the proximity. Finally, TTB cares not, as Silk City observes about sprinklers, about the safety considerations or whether there is a church next door, or a school, or ... They have no law that grants them permission to consider such factors. They do have a law that requires them to consider whether the distillery is in a yard that is connected to a house. I have obtained approval in a number of instances, after making full disclosure. I suspect that there are examples out there where people did not disclose. Recently, at least one TTB specialist, has been asking for statements, as a part of the application, that the DSP is not located on property on which there is also a residence. Others have not asked this question. But the 50-foot rule is not a rule as far as I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indyspirits Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 Although I may be oversimplifying, what I have come to understand is that there must exist no encumbrance that would prevent, hinder, or otherwise burden the TTB from getting their piece of flesh. Fair enough. All other decision making regarding location falls to the locals and by "locals" I mean everyone, even your local historical (hysterical) society or neighborhood association. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhdunbar Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 TTB does not use the word, but the encumbrance you posit is what the law calls "curtilage." The road to approval passes through the need to satisfy TTB that the proposed location is not within the curtilage of the residence, thereby encumbering TTB's right, under law, to 24/7 access to the DSP. While I think the right of entry granted TTB by the law would, in most cases at least, prevail over claims of curtilage, TTB must deal with this because the law is specific, no DSP in any yard connected to a residence. The phrase is "connected to" and the question is how intimately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernhighlander Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 3 hours ago, indyspirits said: All other decision making regarding location falls to the locals and by "locals" I mean everyone, even your local historical (hysterical) society or neighborhood association. I am so glad that I live where we don't have to deal with any of that. No building permits, no building inspectors. no zoning. You can build what you want on your own property and wire and plumb it yourself, without answering to anyone. To get a separate address for my distillery, which is on the same 42 acre property as my house and 4 other businesses, all that I had to do was call the post office and get a new postal address and put up a mail box. Out here our postal addresses also serve as our physical addresses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhdunbar Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 Well, it is good that you live on 42 acres that can reasonably allow that, but if you lived in a residential neighborhood and wanted to open a DSP (or pig farm or shooting gallery or facility to test race car engines, or ...) on your property, say 10 feet from my house, I'd be glad that someone had the ability to say "no." That is, freedom comes in two flavors. The first is "freedom to," on which you focus. The second is "freedom from," on which my comments about pig farms and the like focus. I think I have a reasonable expectation of peaceful and safe enjoyment of my residence. So living together seems to imply some reasonable accommodation of the two sorts of freedom. The safe haven for the person who wants fairly unrestricted "freedom to" is living apart, which is what you chose. Today most can't make that choice . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indyspirits Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 26 minutes ago, Southernhighlander said: No building permits, no building inspectors. no zoning. It's worked so well for Houston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernhighlander Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 Houston Texas? They have building permits, building codes and zoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indyspirits Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 Indeed. I was referring to more along the lines of: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/investigations/harvey-urban-planning/ from which I drew: Quote Over many years, officials in Houston and Harris County have resisted calls for more stringent building codes. Proposals for large-scale flood-control projects envisioned in the wake of Hurricane Ike in 2008 stalled. City residents have voted three times not to enact a zoning code, most recently in 1993. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernhighlander Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 dhdunder, I meant no disrespect. I have equipment in around 19% of the distilleries in the US, so I am always helping my customers get through all of the hurdles that they face. Some of the those hurdles seem unreasonably high, but we have gotten past all of them equipment wise. I just said that I am glad that I do not have to deal with what you have to deal with. I would never live in any place where the powers that be, could dictate that I cannot put a water heater in my house without a permit, or build a house without paying thousands of dollars for a permit. I really love living where I can live free and still buy land for $1.500.00 per acre. When they say "we are the government and we are here to help" I get scared. I understand where you are coming from though, about not have a hog farm, move in next to you but no hog farmer, or shooting range would move into a congested residential area like that anyway, though I have seen the reverse happen more than I care to talk about. Considering that you are glad that you are protected from having something move in next door to you that you don't like, have you asked your neighbors that are only 50 ft away what they think about having a distillery 50ft away from them? I would think that they would be the first people that you would want to talk to. I know that just out of common courtesy, they would be the first people that I would talk to and if they did not like the idea i would find a different location, otherwise you will have continuing ongoing issues with your neighbors that may never end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indyspirits Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 27 minutes ago, Southernhighlander said: build a house without paying thousands of dollars for a permit True story (and apologies to the OP). Few years ago built a garage at my house. I was trying to sneak under the permitting radar to save $$$$ in fees not to skirt building codes. When local electric company came to hook up, saw I didnt have permits filed. I had to retroactively get permits for: general contruction drainage (it was only a 22x30 garage) plumbing electrical and since the old garage + new garage footprint was more than 75% of my home had to pay $120 for a demolition permit to tear down the old garage to be in compliance with their "footprint" statute. Total cost was about $1,200. For a garage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernhighlander Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 Indysprits, It works very well for us here and it certainly makes it much easier to start a distillery when you do not have to deal with city and state bureaucracy of that type. It also means that a distillery can be started for much less money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernhighlander Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 Building your garage without the required permits was really a stupid thing to do. I would never do anything like that. You had to know that would come back and bite you and it was just as immoral as cheating on your taxes. Personally, I always fallow the rules where the rules apply. I never cheat. Cheaters always lose in the end. I have several rental properties. I am building another rental house on a 4 acre property. I only paid $4,000.00 for the land. It will cost me around $70,000.00 to build the 1,200 square ft house with central heat and air etc. It appraised at $116,000.00 for insurance. No building inspections or permits where required or I would have gotten them. I apologize for being off subject as well, but I just had to reply, to Indysprits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indyspirits Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 5 hours ago, Southernhighlander said: it was just as immoral as cheating on your taxes Explain. Ethics, perhaps; morality -- you're barking up the wrong tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foreshot Posted November 28, 2017 Author Share Posted November 28, 2017 Gentlemen - I appreciate the information helping me choose a location. Can we leave it at that? I prefer that this thread not go off in a different direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernhighlander Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 Foreshot, sorry about that. My advice would be to choose a different location were it will be easier to get through all of the red tape. In my opinion a dense residential area is not the best place for a distillery. Will you be depending on tasting room sales as a primary source of income or will you be depending more on sales through distribution? If the latter is the case then you would be much better off in an area zoned for industrial or better yet out in the county with less or no zoning, a little ways out of town, just off an interstate or primary artery into the city. If you choose the latter then you will have several advantages. You will not have too pay city taxes on your sales. You will not have to pay the city for liquor licensing fees (its that way in MO anyway). You won't have concerned neighbors 50' away. Your space will probably cost you less and most importantly of all, you will most likely have to deal with a lot less red tape and bureaucracy to get started. Inspectors get a lot more nervous when you are starting your distillery in a dense area. I have a lot of experience concerning this because I get a lot of feedback from my customers. My customers who start distilleries outside of cities and congested areas have a much easier time and it seems to cost them a great deal less time and money to get started, than most of my customers who are in retail areas and other densely populated areas. I have also seen distilleries that do rely on tasting room sales and tours do really well outside of the city. If you can get a space along a highway or interstate that sees a lot of tourist traffic you can do really well. I know of a distillery on a gravel road just about 2 miles off of one of the major highways going into Branson MO and they get so much walk in business that they don't distribute. They don't need to. The state of MO put up a green and white sign with their distillery name on it right before the turn off to their distillery. The states of MO, KY and VA will put up a distillery sign along the highway for you, if you ask and I know other states will as well. Think about one of the busy freeways into your city and how many people would see your sign if you were set up a mile or two off of the freeway. Thousands of people every day would see that sign. If you can get set up where there is a well then you will never need a chiller. Also, it can be much easier to get rid of your spent mash in an area like that. There are many reasons why it is better to have your distillery outside of Cities and Towns, which is why most of the distilleries that have been around since before the craft distillery boom are outside of cities and towns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernhighlander Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 1 hour ago, indyspirits said: Explain. Ethics, perhaps; morality -- you're barking up the wrong tree. Explanation. In my opinion Ethics and Morality are inextricably linked. As an individual you cannot have one without the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foreshot Posted November 28, 2017 Author Share Posted November 28, 2017 11 hours ago, Southernhighlander said: Will you be depending on tasting room sales as a primary source of income or will you be depending more on sales through distribution? Mostly tasting room sales with some local distribution. With the market consolidating I see it harder to break into the distribution market until I have a solid brand. PA's a control state so I can get into some of the state stores without too much hassle. I plan on starting small and working on marketing/product until I feel it's ready for the next step. I have a couple reasons that I want to stay local. I know my local politicians well and a lot of places in Pgh are zoned Manufacturing or mixed use. I don't expect too much red tape except for the sewer/water. That would be the potential killer there. Cost wise I am close to what I can get up to 30-45 minutes away, but I would lose a lot of potential customers. Don't get me wrong, I know there is a potential for a lot of gotchas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernhighlander Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 Please excuse me forshot. Indyspirits, I want to apologize. I don't really think that you are a immoral person because you tried to build your garage without the permits. While it's not something that I would do, it's not like you robbed a bank or something. I went overboard and I apologize for that. Paul Hall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernhighlander Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 Foreshot, There's a lot of farming in PA. If you can find a hog farmer to take your mash, that will solve your sewer issues. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhdunbar Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 I think it's time to provide a little perspective. Anectodally, I have NEVER had anyone get hung up by federal requirements other than a residence issue, where the DSP and the residence were on the same property. That was a problem only once, when someone wanted to open a DSP in his uncle's garage, which was 20 feet from his uncle's residence and had habitual been used for residential purposes, was on the same tract of land, shared the same driveway, shared power, shared sewer, etc. It nearly checked off everything you would not want to have if you want to get approval. I flew the warning flag, the client said try, so I did. We failed. That was predictable. Otherwise, if you propose a business model, I can say from experience that you will find a way to fit the premises into what TTB requires. The biggest hurdle is the tasting/retail area and the all the more common request from TTB that we state that they are separated from the DSP by floor to ceiling partitions. That is generally and ambience hurdle compounded by space considerations. But we have always found a solution that worked and generally without any pain. So, I never advise anyone to roll the dice on TTB's asking about floor to ceiling separation and I never advise anyone not to disclose colocation with a residence. I don't want to have to explain why we omitted mention of either. Neither should you. Yes, people can get hung up by state and local requirements, but I have only had one person who had to abandon the general area where they wanted to locate, Hyannis, MA, where the local government wanted to impose additional sprinkler requirements without supplying sufficient water pressure and have sidewalks, etc, put into an area that otherwise had none and ... the client said to hell with it when the costs of renovations to comply topped $300,000. I had another person who suffered a nasty surprise over "M-something or other " fire ratings - I don't pretend to know the fire code - having to construct a fortress of a room after the county had said initially things were okay. But those are the only instances that I recall of real problems. I am sure that some of you have horror stories, but I've dealt with a hundred or so of you who want to get into the business of distilling and it has always worked out in the end. Things are not as bad as you imagine then can be. Don't get anxious over what your imagination tells you "can" happen. Life is too short for that. "Can" is a long way from "will." In the vast majority of cases bumps in the road are small. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foreshot Posted November 28, 2017 Author Share Posted November 28, 2017 Thanks again everyone, I appreciate the input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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