Distilling Cider With High acidity

[Muschiana]

I was recently reading a different post from a few years back and hoped to get some info on this.

A large batch of pear cider sorta feel into our lap recently (Aprx. 2,000 gal). We planned to take a similar approach to most of our apple brandy runs we have done in the past and do a two run/ strip and finish distillation. The initial pH of the cider when we received it was measured around 3.5. Our stripping runs are tasting great with a decent yield but we have noticed a definite acidity to the distillate itself (pH aprx. 2.9-3) as well as noting a general blueish hue (we have a copper condenser so no surprise there). But due to the high acidity after the stripping runs even, we are thinking of adjusting the pH of the distillate prior to our second/ finishing distillation.

Should pH adjustment be happening prior to stripping runs?

 

 

[bluestar]

On 10/30/2017 at 5:18 PM, Muschiana said:

I was recently reading a different post from a few years back and hoped to get some info on this.

A large batch of pear cider sorta feel into our lap recently (Aprx. 2,000 gal). We planned to take a similar approach to most of our apple brandy runs we have done in the past and do a two run/ strip and finish distillation. The initial pH of the cider when we received it was measured around 3.5. Our stripping runs are tasting great with a decent yield but we have noticed a definite acidity to the distillate itself (pH aprx. 2.9-3) as well as noting a general blueish hue (we have a copper condenser so no surprise there). But due to the high acidity after the stripping runs even, we are thinking of adjusting the pH of the distillate prior to our second/ finishing distillation.

Should pH adjustment be happening prior to stripping runs?

 

 

DON'T USE A COPPER CONDENSER WITH FRUIT SPIRITS that can produce acid vapors. You likely have a fair amount of acetic acid (maybe malic acid) in the distillate, and it is creating copper acetate (maybe copper malate) which gives the bluish hue. It is toxic.

[Muschiana]

On 11/4/2017 at 11:25 AM, bluestar said:

DON'T USE A COPPER CONDENSER WITH FRUIT SPIRITS that can produce acid vapors. You likely have a fair amount of acetic acid (maybe malic acid) in the distillate, and it is creating copper acetate (maybe copper malate) which gives the bluish hue. It is toxic.

Thank you for the input!

We are aware of the result of using a copper condenser with both fruit washes and gin, however the condenser cannot be changed at the moment. We ended up "salting" out the acid via addition of calcium carbonate which in turn removed much of the already present copper salts. Given that changing our current set-up is more invasive than altering pH, my question still remains unanswered in that we need to adjust pH at some point to reduce acidity and thus production of copper salts and the pass through of volatile acids but are unsure if this should happen before our initial stripping run or after .

[bluestar]

You can't "salt out" the acetic acid. You will form the acetate salt, but that is still volatile, so you still end up with the acetic acid in the vapor. What happens in the first distillation doesn't matter so much as the second distillation, since you can get rid of the copper acetate by a clean distillation (with no copper condenser). But so long as you have acetate or acetic acid in any quantity in the charge, and you have copper in the condenser, you are in danger of generating copper acetate. Supposedly, you can try to passivate the copper condenser so that it won't be attacked by the acetic acid, but if anything removes or undermines the passivation, you can generate the copper acetate.

So, while the acidic charge is indication of acetate in the pot as acetic acid that will form copper acetate, neutralizing the acid might not get rid of the problem. You have to tie up the acetate. Or get rid of the copper.

[richard1]

Looking at this from a slightly different perspective, if you have copper in the hot vapour path column prior to condensing, is this still an issue or is it only a problem with cooled liquid product.

[bluestar]

17 hours ago, richard1 said:

Looking at this from a slightly different perspective, if you have copper in the hot vapour path column prior to condensing, is this still an issue or is it only a problem with cooled liquid product.

Supposedly, you can't get significant copper in the vapor path, since most salts thermodynamically prefer to be in solution than in the vapor phase, unless at very high concentrations. So it is the copper on the condensing surfaces that exit the still that are a concern (condenser, and lyne arm if it slopes into the condenser).

[Julius]

So using a copper still for peach brandy is a no go?