lack of community support

[Guest db337]

Was hoping to get some advice on non supportive community. We were just getting started in process of getting permits ran mandatory ad in local paper. Community was not supportive. Was hoping maybe someone out there would have some advice on this topic. We have roots in this community and really would like support before going ahead with plans.

thanks Dusty

[porter]

Got a few logical questions anyone here would ask before they can offer intelligent help....

- Lack of support due to ???

Local religious leaders?

Engineers in the town who don't know how to handle water runoff? (personal experience with that one)

How big of a town or area?

Organized against you or just some negative feedback? (those for it won't usually speak up)

And whatever else such as the state/city you wish to share.

We have a local brewery that took 2 years to get a permit, primarily due to the religious community. However, when the brewery showed the plans to remodel a neighborhood the city wanted saved, BEHOLD, the permits started flowing.

Missouri passed riverboat gambling for the state right here in the capital city, however, we can't have a riverboat due 100% to the local religious leaders getting a local statute passed against riverboat gambling. So they have boats up and downstream from us.

Moral- If you can't get your way, move outside their control and remind them how much in taxes and tourism they will lose.

[Scott @ Twenty2Vodka]

I second Porter's questions and comments. I'd like to also add:

1.) Ask for forgivness, not permission. Perhaps a rephrase stating "we will" instead of "we want to" would make the difference?

2.) Perspective matters. Your operation could be perceived as "Just another place where booze is dispensed", or "supporting the local library expansion via tax revenue injection".

3.) Don't be afraid to change your original grand plan. Infact, get used to it. If the town doesn't want you its their loss cause you are going to do this (and make it successful) no matter what. And if you can't say #3 with a straight face, move out of the way cause there are guys waiting their turn who can and will crush you.

Good luck.

-Scott

[Beauport Bob]

Hello Dusty,

With only the info of your post it is natural we rely on our own experiences as Porter mentioned. We can go in a lot of directions. I am confused actually on what you are asking. "Community Support" is difficult if you listen to every one. Am I right to assume you really are asking a question of zoning and variance rather than ability to have a distillery in the community? I think this as you "ran mandatory ad in local paper". And your previous posts on open flame distilliing. That would seem more of micro local than macro. If I guess wrong, sorry. Did you start with having your proposed location meeting the Federal TTB regs? You can use that as a tool to the locals who may not understand your needs. View the recent threads here on Fire Codes.

Romance of distilling aside, you are entering a "Value Added" business with true business decisions to be made. The costs of operating a distillery profitably have to be recovered. Take a look at your business plans (I hope, a 5 pager and a more intense line item 20+ pager), and as Scott mentioned be prepared to change. How important is this community to your profitability? The biggest industry in my town is the grocery store and realtors. I travel 7 miles and I have 400 years of coastal New England history.

Now, your original request. These are things we did. At this point, remember you are the "face" of your facility and product. Your actual Marketing starts now with selling your facility.

It is an election year for someone all the time. Get you picture at a "Meet & Greet" Federal, State and local Politations. Let them know personally what you intend. Install curiosity about the future of Jobs, taxes, commerce, dollars stay local, etc. Give them the tools to help you.

Do you have a local business school. Involve them in a business plan compitition (note:get non-compete, and release clauses).

How about a local art school, or art society.. label designs( again release and exclusive use, get the picture on legal stuff.)

Historical Society.....how do you relate to the past? Sombody has a grandfather who got caught. What is the ethnic legacy of your community? Build on it.

What is the future of your town? growth, expansion? Get the Chamber of Commerce on board. They should eat up having a distillery in town. Any "Membership Driven" organization would be.

I have not even asked about what you intend to produce. Can you use local ingredients? Helping local agriculture, Agri-tourism, is "the nuts" (Best!). That one is weak for us as our Sacred Codfish and Haddock do not ferment well.

2 more cents: unfortunatly, you have already given credence to what a few may have already mentioned against you.

Thicken your skin, You will need to when you start selling your product anyway.

Cheers and good luck!

[Guest db337]

Thanks for the replies. The area is rural but growing everyday. Our 60 acres are in a county not a town or city limits. It's not really organized against us. It's mostly just anti alcohol and business neighbors wanting the area to stay the way it has always been. Closed mindedness. If anyone was for it they have not come forward yet. Many of the concerns are bordering on ridiculous. example what is the risk of explosion? they feel their property values will suffer. They will be raising kids in this area. increased traffic, odor from fermenting process, who would be hauling our product (hence the increased traffic) what would we be doing with waste products. How much would we be producing? Area now is zoned restricted development we would have to get rezoned as limited manufacturing. Some neighbors are worried about this. Wanting us to sign a clause saying we would not get but so big they never really said how big. Thats when they wanted to know how much we would be producing. They were told not more than 125,000 cases per year. Thats what our state of South Carolina will allow a micro-distillery. Like we would go into a business limiting ourselves to our neighbors wishes. Yes we will only produce what you guys want! lol

one guy asked about security like he knows better than the feds on this one. The best one, road name being associated with a distillery (alcohol). These are the concerns now that considered my parents live in this area and my father and his friend are a part of proposed business. So we will have to make a decision on what to do. Thicken up our skin sounds really good to me! We will be meeting with neighbors again this Thursday the 29th. Their protest to the state have to be postmarked by May 1st signed and with valid reason why.

Thanks Dusty

[coop]

Thanks for the replies. The area is rural but growing everyday. Our 60 acres are in a county not a town or city limits. It's not really organized against us. It's mostly just anti alcohol and business neighbors wanting the area to stay the way it has always been. Closed mindedness. If anyone was for it they have not come forward yet. Many of the concerns are bordering on ridiculous. example what is the risk of explosion? they feel their property values will suffer. They will be raising kids in this area. increased traffic, odor from fermenting process, who would be hauling our product (hence the increased traffic) what would we be doing with waste products. How much would we be producing? Area now is zoned restricted development we would have to get rezoned as limited manufacturing. Some neighbors are worried about this. Wanting us to sign a clause saying we would not get but so big they never really said how big. Thats when they wanted to know how much we would be producing. They were told not more than 125,000 cases per year. Thats what our state of South Carolina will allow a micro-distillery. Like we would go into a business limiting ourselves to our neighbors wishes. Yes we will only produce what you guys want! lol

one guy asked about security like he knows better than the feds on this one. The best one, road name being associated with a distillery (alcohol). These are the concerns now that considered my parents live in this area and my father and his friend are a part of proposed business. So we will have to make a decision on what to do. Thicken up our skin sounds really good to me! We will be meeting with neighbors again this Thursday the 29th. Their protest to the state have to be postmarked by May 1st signed and with valid reason why.

Thanks Dusty

Every one who comes into our distillery absolutely love the smells. Almost all think it smells like a bakery. Yeast and grains. Also tell them the spent grains would be GIVEN to the local FFA, Future Farmers of America which is a school program which we support here with excess grain that I have not sold back to the farmers. We support at least one family a year in the program. Always one that would not be able to purchase the grain necessary to raise a animal for the fair. Maybe their is a local already in the business but not legal? Just trying to help, Coop

[delaware_phoenix]

I imagine you have given thought to how big your stills will be, and your actual production? The way you're talking makes it sound like you want to put a big factory on your property.

The maximums you mention come to 90,000 liters a month. That's 25,000 gallons a month, about 800 gallons a day! 15 barrels (53 gallon) a day! W00T!

I think you need to say that your operation won't be any bigger than the usual barn with a couple silos in the area. That way your operation won't look out of place.

However, you need to get past the zoning commission, and they tend to be to responsive to local views. But at least folks are coming to talk to you about it. They won't complain to the state, that's not their way. Even though the zoning board hasn't even received your application yet, they know of you. Their approval is required for your project to even happen. And you'll need your exact plans and facts (e.g., how many trucks) to let them know the bad things they think will happen, won't.

[Scott @ Twenty2Vodka]

So we will have to make a decision on what to do.

Hey Dusty. Just wanted to put the things from your reply into a quick list for some perspective. I have a feeling that this is the tip of the iceberg in terms of the actual crap you've had to put up with from the community.

1.) It's mostly just anti alcohol and business neighbors wanting the area to stay the way it has always been.

2.) Closed mindedness.

3.) If anyone was for it they have not come forward yet.

4.) Many of the concerns are bordering on ridiculous. example what is the risk of explosion?

5.) they feel their property values will suffer.

6.) [concern with] raising kids in this area.

7.) [concern with] increased traffic

8.) [concern with] odor from fermenting process

9.) [concern with] who would be hauling our product (hence the increased traffic)

10.) [concern with] what would we be doing with waste products.

11.) How much would we be producing?

12.) Area now is zoned restricted development we would have to get rezoned as limited manufacturing. Some neighbors are worried about this.

13.) Wanting us to sign a clause saying we would not get but so big they never really said how big. Thats when they wanted to know how much we would be producing.

14.) [concern with] road name being associated with a distillery (alcohol)

15.) They have an actual protest submitted to the state!?!?

If you accommodate any of these concerns at a direct cost to your vision or operation capability, you are considering going into a business limiting yourself to your neighbor's wishes. That is a guaranteed recipe for disaster. Pure and simple.

It sounds like the only real thing going for you is this 60 acre plot of land. Is that land really so valuable to YOUR overall plan that you are seriously considering spending the time to address things as ridiculous as the street name, and as irrelevant (to them) as your production capacity??

Personally, #12, #13, and #15 seem like too much actual trouble than it's worth. I find now that i'm operating, i need to remind myself that "i'm a vodka company" often. I mean that in the sense that vodka is what pays the bills and the better i get at vodka, the better i get at paying bills. Distractions can lead you away from the real money maker and before you know it you have transformed into a tshirt company, or a free-tour-to-whoever-stops-by company. The list above looks to me like 15 too many distractions that a move to a new (more welcoming) location could solve in 1 swoop.

Best of luck,

-Scott

[Ralph at Tuthilltown]

We have some experience with this kind of thing. First rule, read the local zoning manual front to back. If you're in an Agricultural area you must contact your state Ag office and see what rights you have as a farm, 60 acres would certainly qualify and if you grow rye or other grains then use them to make your product there you are in some States (like NY) considered a Farm Operation. Some States do not consider Farm Operations which produce goods to be "manufacturing", but rather "agricultural use."

But mainly if you are married to the land you have then you must perhaps take a more direct approach and let the lawyers and engineers respond to the issues the neighbors raise. Go through the process. The law can not be applied based on what people fear "might happen". The local and State laws will have regulations regarding the expansion of businesses. The numbers quoted above are so highly unlikely unless you're opening a major facility that they should not even come up. And I don't know about your State law, but in NY if you're operating a business allowed by zoning, it is a use by right and it must be accommodated within the law.

Speak with a Zoning and Land Use specialist. Speak with your State Dept of Agriculture. Remind everyone about the taxes you'll generate and the jobs you'll create. If it doesn't matter to them and they continue to scream about it, turn to the law. You should not have to reveal how you intend to grow. Or what type of heat element you're using unless it's in the fire code. Do things according to code. The above advice, ask forgiveness not permission is a rule of thumb we learned around here the hard way. Now we consult our attorney, check the local zoning and State law and proceed under the best interpretation we can find, making sure to document everything and prove we did everything correctly.

You may be able to get a variance. But it is a long slog. You can fight City Hall and noisy neighbors. But better to avoid the issue entirely. If you can find another place more suitable and won't take a loss, assuming you have not yet started to build out, my advice: reconsider your site. Zoning is a bear.