hawk

We’ve gotten new 10-gallon barrels for aging our small quantities of apple brandy, but we’ve discovered that new barrels oak the spirits really fast. So we’re looking for old 50-gallon barrels to provide a more neutral environment for long-term aging.

Used brandy barrels would be ideal, but they’re hard to come by. An easy source is used wine barrels, but I wonder about whether their previous use for red wine will give too much wine taste to my spirit. Does anyone know if you can soak that out sufficiently?

Thanks,

Hawk

Hi,

We went through this with TTB a few months ago. The overview is that both we and the TTB seemed to find this topic VERY confusing. We got bumped up to a 'technical expert,' who had several different answers over the course of two days as he read and re-read and consulted others.

However, the final answer we got was that we did NOT need to submit a gin formula, either for our NGS-based gin or the one we make with alcohol from our apple cider. The explanation: "You're not redistilling gin; what you're making is gin for the first time when you make it."

Hawk

State of WA did not accept the European electrical certification. We had to hire a certified electrical engineer to go over the still and certify that it met US Underwriter standards.

Engineer said that the European standard is not enforced same way as Underwriter's Lab, so that while German stills will be exemplary electrically, something with the same label coming from another country could be completely inferior.

One more way to spend money!

I am distilling wine. The heads were overpowering with the smell of sulfides. I added Hydrogen peroxide 35% 600ml for 60 gallons of wine. I increased the hydrogen peroxide to 1200ml and then 2000ml. Still smells like sulfides..How do I get rid of the sulfides?

I don't know whether our experience will be exactly applicable. We're distilling cider and have had to work with sulfited cider to start. Often get nasty smell (burns your nose) throughout heads and even well into hearts.

After some panic, we have tried aerating with good success. Even whisking repeatedly in a large pan over a couple days lets the bad stuff gas off, and we've also used an acquarium bubbler to do it in carboys.

Hawk

San Juan Island DIstillery

It sounds like you may be getting saponification, perhaps from adding water too fast.

Try drastically reducing the speed at which you add water, particularly as you get closer to 40% abv. Perhaps you will get a clearer spirit.

To be clear, it always stays perfectly clear while we add water to get it down to 40%. But diluting further is when the oils start to drop out. So we're dealing with oils that respond to water but not to freezing.

It does sound like a problem with oil dropping out of solution as you decrease the proof. What product is this? Is it a gin?

S.

It occurs both in our apple eau de vie and in the gin that we then make from it with one more distillation.

At ADI last week, I thought we'd solved the problem. We're getting clear distillate even cut to 40%, but when we add water (including a melting ice cube), it clouds. Two separate people said chilling very cold will cause the oils to drop out and cause cloudiness, and then you can filter them out.

Tried that today and it stays clear even in the freezer. Only thing that works for us is first diluting to produce cloudiness, then filtering, then re-distilling. Hate that last step!

We hope this is an oddity of our simple pot still during our test period, and that column and bubble plates will fix it. But does anyone know why we're getting cloudiness only with dilution and not with freezing?

Thanks,

Hawk Pingree

San Juan Island Distillery

As further context, my reason for asking has to do with making gin. We planned to make some gin starting with our own apple cider. That fits within the TTB gin definition, but cider will be an expensive source with its own taste characteristics to balance against juniper and the other botanicals. And we're having some technical problems carrying too much oil through, so that diluting with an ice cube makes things cloudy. With our test still that's even happening on the eau de vie without any botanicals! So both as a potential solution to the oil problem, and with the idea of having a less-expensive version of our gin, we were hoping to locate in-state NGS. As KBFreeRange points out, using non-Washington NGS needs calculating against the 51% rule for craft distilleries.

Interesting argument about the legislature and definitions. My understanding is that the 51% rule was key to identifying craft distilling as an agricultural activity and thus mobilizing that support base. I think I'd agree on the 'relabeled vodka' point, but think there can be lots of craft going into a gin run because of the botanicals and all of the control issues, even if some of the alcohol source was made elsewhere.

Does anyone know of a supplier of NGS using Washington-state crops?

I'm noticing that besides the ADI Conference, which looks great, but is too long, pricey, and geographically inconvenient (I'm on the East Coast) for me at this stage, there are a number of events and courses offered through the major still manufacturers, such as the Bavarian Breweries Distilleries event in AZ, the Carl Distilleries event in Michigan, the Kothe workshop in Chicago. Does anybody have an opinion for a beginner about who they think puts on an event, or offers a course, that provides solid, all-around information for a start-up distillery - e.g., techniques, equipment advice, production calculations, etc.?

I took the two-day version offered in the Northwest by two Carl reps and a Michigan State prof. I called home the first afternoon to report that my brain was full. It was fast but high quality. I have heard the same thing about the Kothe and Bavarian courses in various places. Given how packed the two days were, I wonder if a beginner could get enough out of a one-day course. I was tempted by the one-week course across the state, but couldn't spare the time to be away from home that long.

Hawk

The kind of still you are running might determine the answer to this question. If you are pushing cooling water from the final condenser to a partial condenser in a short column for rectification, the temperature of the water will have a major impact on your distillate.

Many stills are designed this way. If it's alambic with no helmet condenser the temp will simply be a matter of fully condensing your final spirit.

I think this might apply to us. We have ordered an Adrian still with 4 plates in a side column, and it looks like there's a pre-condenser at the top of that column.

So how does pushing cooling water there have an impact on the distillate? Or I guess I mean "how" and "what kind of impact?"

Thanks for helping.

Water will be precious at our distillery -- we're going to try to recapture and re-use, but we know we'll still use a lot from our low-production well.

One variable on water use would be the output temperature of our distillate (not the condensing water -- we know that will be hot), but we've heard conflicting things. One expert tells us to stay below 25 C (77 F) or else we'll start to degrade quality. Another said that just wastes cooling water, and as long as we stay below alcohol vapor temperatures, we'll be fine.

I'm skeptical of the latter -- even if we're not at overall vapor point, higher temperatures have to accelerate evaporation, though I suppose we could try to capture that with a container lid.

So the real question here is just what about heat damages our distillate (i.e., "how") and what temperatures matter how much. And the p.s. to this is to add that since we're starting with hard cider, we're concerned about aroma and flavor characteristics and not just the alcohol itself.

Thanks,

Hawk Pingree

San Juan Island Distillery

Thanks to the group who replied on this. The one thing that's clear here is that the rules confuse everyone.

We called in to the TTB formula and label people. Person I talked with first on the phone said that this is not redistillation and thus doesn't require formula for gin. But I asked another question she couldn't answer, so she referred me to an expert who called me back and was very nice.

At first he was saying that any third-pass gin-making was redistillation, but later he backed away to: a third pass using spirits we made ourselves from scratch was not, but if we did a run 50-50 with our spirits and NGS, that would be redistillation. He encouraged me to summarize what I'd heard from him in an email so he could be sure we had the same understanding. When I did that, his email came back saying that NEITHER of those two situations was redistillation: in either case, that pass with the botanicals is the first pass making gin and thus its 'original distillation.'

All of these positions make sense, depending on assumptions and definitions. But we'll go with his final word since it saves us a formula step.

Hawk

We're working on what our gin will taste like, and it seems we've discovered something odd in the TTB regulations. I've always heard that the botanicals are added during a third pass through the still (i.e., after a stripping run and finishing run to produce the spirit, or using NGS produced elsewhere). What the TTB just told us is that doing this third run makes our gin 'redistilled' and thus we have to go through formula submission. However, if we put the botanicals into the second, finishing run, then we are making 'distilled gin' and do not need to submit a formula. Seems like an odd distinction to draw, but we wouldn't mind saving a step of TTB paperwork.

However, given this, why do we seemingly always hear that botanicals get added on a third run? Does anyone know if doing it in the second run has any down side?

Thanks,

Hawk Pingree

San Juan Island Distillery

We're looking at an Adrian still, but would like to hear from anyone who has experience with them.

Hawk Pingree

hpingree@gmail.com