Hammer Spring Distillers

We got the same contact from these guys, and they said a similar thing.  We are also a very small distillery with no out-of-state distribution currently.  It seemed unlikely to us that it was a good fit for us.  Here's the text of the initial contact:
We work directly with major film and TV studios. And we had a production coordinator send me some still photo’s of your Hammer Spring spirits. There is a film studio that needs premium whiskey and gin for multiple scenes of an upcoming film and Hammer Spring Distillers fits perfectly for what the production wants. Your product has been enthusiastically approved and we'd like to discuss showcasing your products in the film. I also work with a few major TV shows where we could showcase your products.   This is very sensitive information as it involves the disclosure of projects not yet filmed/aired. Thanks.

The guy did call and chat, and sent us a proposal, but we decided it wasn't for us.

Here's the straight dope from the TTB on the matter of making Bitters, with the specialist's contact info at the end.

Here's my original question:
Hello TTB, thank you for always answering our questions! Our DSP UT-20014 (Hammer Spring Distillers) is interested in the process of manufacturing Cocktail Bitters. I know there are different regulations for non-beverage products, and we are under the impression that this is prohibited in our bonded space. Assuming this, we are acquiring the use of a commissary kitchen to mix/blend/bottle, etc. Our question is generally regarding how to transfer the alcohol from the bonded space to the commissary kitchen without a separate DSP for the kitchen? We would like to support our Bitters d.b.a. with our own spirit base, but we don't want to create packaging for it and otherwise sell it retail (listing through the State, etc). I think this is covered under "Industrial manufacturing", but am not familiar with the specifics of it. How is this generally done? I looked for information on this process, but quickly got bogged down in sections of code that were irrelevant to what I was after and/or endlessly circular in nature, etc. Could you give me a link or general description of the process to get us started?

On 4/28/2018 at 2:24 PM, dhdunbar said:

Hey David, thanks for the summary on Bitters manufacturing!  I just submitted an inquiry to the TTB on this very topic today since we are exploring this idea now!  I'll post their reply here once I get it.

On 10/9/2021 at 11:06 AM, Alex_Sor said:

you need to read about "palenque"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pálinka

We're not fermenting the nectarines - per the OP, we're adding already high-proof distilled spirits to the crushed fruit to extract the flavor.  Now trying to get all the fruit micro-floaties out of it.  I've made wine (at home) before, and clarified it with chitosan that came in a kit.  I'd rather not use that (because, ew!), but want something that will drop all the particulates out of the solution.

Dehner Distillery,
Interesting.  Any idea how many gallons of vodka you pass through how many pounds of carbon before you change out the carbon? 

Also - unrelated to this thread but something I've observed, and just started researching is the exothermic reaction that occurs when 190 proof is passed through [dry] activated carbon.  Something about Gibbs Energy of Adsorption and the enthalpy of the ethanol.  Has anyone gone down the rabbit hole on this to learn what is actually happening to the ethanol after that much energy is changing hands with the carbon?

Hi folks,

We were gifted a bunch of nectarines which we crushed and then infused with vodka.  We've been letting the infusion sit for a couple of weeks, but the super-fine pulp has only dropped to about the midpoint of the 6-gallon carboys and doesn't seem to be dropping any further.  Someone said "Pectic Enzyme" would clear this out and settle it all to the bottom.  Does anyone else have experience with getting fruit infusions to clear?

JP

We use 'zero-water' for just about everything, so we don't get any mineral build up.  We ferment in the tun and only use enough nutrient to keep the yeast happy and haven't had a problem with any left overs mucking things up.  It's fairly small so-to-speak (100 gallons) and all the ports are tri-clamp, so I pull them all out to clean it each time to avoid any crud hiding in the ports.  Generally tho, the Ryobi power washer has been the right tool for the job - we bought some PBW after it was recommended earlier in this thread, but haven't even had to use it yet.

On 11/5/2020 at 1:38 PM, kleclerc77 said:

Right! I barely use caustic at all anymore. I love the fact that I have almost completely eliminated its use here. The less gnarly chemicals, the better. 

Pressure washer for the MFW!!  That made quick work of that!  Thanks for the suggestion - if you're ever in Salt Lake City, drop by, I'll buy you a shot!

On 11/5/2020 at 1:38 PM, kleclerc77 said:

Right! I barely use caustic at all anymore. I love the fact that I have almost completely eliminated its use here. The less gnarly chemicals, the better. 

3 hours ago, SlickFloss said:

Is mash tun copper or stainless? Copper do the recommended PBW protocol, stainless use hot caustic and hot citric with a triple rinse technique. If thats not enough you can supercharge your caustic with grease X, or often what I've found even more helpful is using a more aggressive acid like a passivating citric solution.

 

Cheers,

Slick

People have copper mash tuns!?

That's an excellent idea!  I even have one of those already!

Great tip, thanks! We'll give it a try! 

We have a 100 gallon jacketed mash tun, with a cooling coil looping around the inside.  We do potato vodka, and a corn/rye/wheat bourbon.  After each run, we spray it out with hot water, then spray it aggressively with StarSan solution.  Can't ever really get all the crud out of the nooks and crannies - every once in a while we have to take the whole dang thing apart, motor off, coil out, etc. climb in and scrub the bejeezus out of it by hand.  There's got to be a better way?  Is there?

Is this "the rum thread" or is it happening somewhere else?  Hammer Spring is 2+ years in with potato vodka, and a tremendously successful gin and just a few months away from cracking our first bourbon barrel we started a while back.  Last summer I did a one-off batch of rum, and the silver version wasn't very good (in my opinion), but after a while in a 15-gal re-purposed whiskey barrel it turned out alright. We sold all 75 bottles in a few weeks.  Now I've done another rum that I'm going to experiment with a re-charred barrel (of my own doing, boy that was fun!!), just for kicks.  But I'm going to have about 10 gallons of silver rum left after I fill the barrel and I'd like to try a dark, like a black-strap rum, and maybe a spiced versions.  What the heck goes into a dark rum?  Do you just add molasses, or other stuff?  I've heard nightmarish stories about "dunder" and other atrocities that supposedly go into it that seem more fit for a Jules Verne story... any advice, or links?
Cheers!

JP

On 11/29/2016 at 6:14 PM, adamwest said:

for posterity....figured it out, for anyone who finds this in frustration....

-hold the lower pink rubber, twist the upper pink rubber for adjustment.

-counterclockwise allows for more fill....as you twist the top pink while holding the lower pink the nipple will get longer, so it dips deeper and your fill will stop earlier.

-you only need to adjust shelf level if it wont push the nozzle up enough to get proper flow.

 

Adam

Adam, this post has been a lifesaver!!  We have the Mori-Tem, whatever, knockoff - and I didn't know you could adjust the depth of the filler tip by rotating the purple thing!  This little tip now makes our life infinitely easier!!

I'm curious if there's any type of chart out there for water displacement on various grains.  I understand it will/may vary somewhat on the grind, but generally speaking.  If I put X pounds of milled grains in my mash tun, and fill it the rest of the way up with water... how much water actually went in there, by percentage?  Sugar is a known variable, but does anyone have numbers for this on corn or other grains?  My very rough guess is that for 250 lbs of milled corn, I'll add about 75 gallons of water to a 100 gallon mash tun to fill it up.  Anyone else ever calculate this before?

We're just starting with corn (2 years in with potatoes, and making great vodka from them!).  We buy flaked (pre gelatinized) corn, and mill it to a flour just a fair bit finer than corn meal, but not all the way to bread flour.  We have a jacketed mash tun, and use Alpha, Beta, and Bioglucanase enzymes (no malted grains).  We're getting pretty consistent Specific Gravity of 1.08 (10.4% potential alcohol).  We also have a jacketed still, and distill on the grain.  Take everyone's advice about not trying to lauter corn - you'll die trying, and it won't benefit you much (unless you have a $20k centrifuge separator).

3 minutes ago, captnKB said:

I would agree with @Roger throw in some beta once it is cool, aerate and pitch. The beta will chew up any remaining starch while the ferment gets going

I think I'm too far into the ferment on this round - but I'll try it on the next go

Thanks for the feedback!

9 minutes ago, Roger said:

Throw in some beta now that you have it cooled down. It will convert any unfermentable sugars over 3 days. 

I've never heard of putting bg in after fermentation starts... is that what you meant?  Or did you mean leave it at room temperature for 3 days before fermenting <yikes!>

26 minutes ago, Skaalvenn said:

It's likely fully converted. Any wheat particles will still have starch and will turn black. Trust your specific gravity.

Yea, not much else I can do at this point with it.  I pitched some yeast, we'll see how she does - thanks for the follow up!

Just as an experiment, I tried a 100% wheat mash (100 gallons of it).  I milled 200 lbs of hard red wheat kernels and 50 lbs of malted wheat into the typical flour/grist (1:4 malt ratio. Malter said wheat had a DP of around 140'ish).  To the cold water I added 100 mL of bioglucanase, and 10 mL Fermcap-S, and 300 mL of Amylo-300, slowly brought it up to 150 as I added the grist <edit: forgot to mention I adjusted the pH to 5.2>, and held it there for an hour or so.  It looked, smelled great, tasted sweet, was plenty sticky when rubbed between fingers, etc - all the things were great. Even the specific gravity showed 1.085 (about 20 brix).  All signs pointed to a successful mash, but It failed the iodine/starch test ... so I let it sit (at 150F) for a while longer... still black.  I let it sit overnight at 150F (all the time slowly agitating to keep it consistent).  In the morning, still black.  Around noon the 2nd day I added 3.5 oz alpha amylase (dry), nothing, turned up the heat to 165F, still black iodine.  Any thoughts on why it might not fully convert?

JP.

On 5/12/2019 at 8:35 AM, Glenlyon said:

Sorry for the delay in responding. Were having a busy weekend. The pump is a GRUNDFOS ALPHA AUTO ADAPT 15-55F/CC. It does regulate itself depending on demand - its been a great system so far.

Maybe. It depends on your business. We started small and are growing quickly based on demand. I have competitors who started much, much bigger and their product is sitting on the shelf. So, when we do grow again next year, we know exactly what we're getting into. No GNS for us. Quality over quantity all the way.

We started (and still are) small (100 gallon).  If we mashed 300 gallons per day, we'd have outgrown our space in a week because as a start-up, you're never going to sell that much, no matter what spirit you make. If you're barreling it, you'd better have a million square feet of rick house that you can float the rent on for the first few years before you sell anything because your barrels are going to pile up fast.  Distribution in a control state is a real struggle and competing against national brands is nearly impossible.  Unsurprisingly, particularly with vodka, most consumers are happy enough with a $6 plastic bottle of Bartons and just laugh at a $25 bottle of true craft, potato vodka.  Even many of your local shops are sourcing and/or rectifying so you can't compete with that either.  So, in addition to all the things - you'd better be (or have) a marketing genius.  For what it's worth

Unmalted - excellent advice, thank you!

JP

6 hours ago, Silk City Distillers said:

1) Keep on truckin'. Once you get it down, it's easy.  We love mashing rye now, it's the shortest and easiest mash day.

2) Make your pH adjustments before each enzyme addition.  5.8 for BG, 5.8-5.6 for HTAA, 5.4-5.2 for GA (roughly).  This is to optimize effectiveness and ensure maximum activity through mashing and continuing through fermentation.  Look at the pH tables for your enzymes, if available, and make a determination of what's optimal, and what works (you don't want to be increasing the mash pH, only stepping it down slowly with each addition).  For example, if you are already at 5.6 after grain additions, don't bother attempting to raise, that becomes your starting pH, only adjust down for GA, and then afterwards.  Bring it down to at least 5.2 before fermentation.  If you suspect you are dealing with bacterial gremlins, push it down even further.

3) Increase your hold time at gel temperature, push it to an hour.  Rye always seems to like it hotter, and longer, than what any chart or table says.  There is a really popular gelatinization temp chart that's made it's way around the internet.  Ignore it, it's garbage.

4) Add your HTAA right after your glucanase rest is complete, it helps keep mash thin.

5) Rye Lies - don't bother attempting an accurate starting gravity.  Even the iodine test can be frustratingly inaccurate.  Especially if you are milling to near-flour.

6) You can try pulling back to 2lb/gal until you have a dialed in process, then attempt to push from there if necessary.  I don't even attempt to push that high, it's not worth it.  We use 1000lb of unmalted rye in 2000l (530g) total mash volume or 450 gallons total water.  We tried pushing to 1100, and it's just not worth the effort.  Also, 1000lb is half of a 2000lb super sack, which makes grain handling easier.

7) The slow distillation - are you using an electrically heated Bain Marie?  Agitator?

😎 Yield - how much of the 3 enzymes are you using?  What's the total mash bill weight?

Thanks for the reply Silk City!  I'll be sure to adjust pH earlier in subsequent batches, and increase the rest times as suggested.  We do use an electric bain marie (oil jacket) with an agitator.  I know the heat up time is what it is, but once it's to temperature (192f at this elevation) it still runs dreadfully slow.  I know the lower the abv in the wash/mash, the slower the run will go - so that was kind of the genesis of my hunch that I had unfermented sugars still in there.  We work in 100 gallon sets, so it's 250 lbs grain in just shy of  100 gallons of water, 100 mL biogluc (I know that's more than needed), 300 mL Hightempase, and 30 mL Amylo 300, about a cup of citric to get to 5.8, and 145 g dry yeast.

20 minutes ago, adamOVD said:

Any alchohol in the solution will throw off the refractometer reading. They are only good for checking OG. So it sounds like the ferment did finish, and I dont know why your yield was so low. Hopefully silk's advise above can get you dialed in.

I knew there was some level of inaccuracy with rotodexterity in the refractometer once alcohol was introduced - just wasn't sure what to expect with this new batch.  Thanks for the reply!

13 hours ago, stevea said:

100% rye is a sort of torture-test.  You might try a <70% and see how it goes.

There are Dupont viscosity reducing enzymes from Gusmer's available aimed at rye & wheat.  I don't have experience but Headstill wrote about them a while back. These reduce the arabinoxylose & hemicellulose 'gums'.  The prices aren't bad at all, but the minimum qty is like 25kg.

IoR is an indirect measure of sugars (and anything else that differs in rotation from water) , OTOH hydrometry is also indirect and just measures the density.  If you want to get hard-core there is a Fehling's test (strips are available as Clinitest) for reducing sugars.  You can even measure glucose (not maltose etc) using a diabetic test meter & strips - very easy & cheap.  In the US these measure in milligram/deciliter with an accurate range ~50-200 mg/dl - so you'll need to understand dilution.  A 100 reading on a diabetic meter is 100mg/dl or almost exactly  0.1 Plato (of glucose only).   I'm not suggesting these as a regular procedure, but it's nice to have a couple tools in the drawer when things are unclear.

Ha, the glucometer is brilliant!  I'm a retired paramedic, so I would love to break out my kit again!  Thanks for the other tips on sugar detection - I know I could also pop $3,500 on a Snap 51, but I left my money in my other pants...