Winnie the Pooh

I sent you a private message. Thanks

Hello,

I am planning to order a 4" x 48" Stainless Steel shotgun condenser on alibaba and they have a 3 pieces minimum order.

Price becomes around $380 total for condenser and shipping into West Coast. 

It comes with TWO 1/2" FNPT ports for incoming/outgoing water and has 14 tubes inside, 1/2" each tube. Each weights 33 lbs (15 kgs).

Anybody are interested in participation? It will be $380 plus $$3 - 5 - 10 packing plus shipping to you.

If you live close to airport and Alaska Airlines flies there, I can make shipping over air for cheaper price - it will require to pick up at terminal.

Thanks

5 hours ago, Still_Holler said:

Also have 6" to 2" reducer for top of the column with extra fnpt fitting welded on so you can have a temp sensor and analog thermometer. $100

The 4 plate sections plus dephleg plus reducer is a nice setup for running 140-150 proof spirits.

Do you have a picture of 6" to 2" reducer as well as other pictures ? Thanks

On 2/18/2019 at 7:10 PM, Aux Arc said:

Winnie. From your previous posts and this one you sound like you are ready to spend some money.  Seriously consider hiring a consultant to at least get you through the process to get you started.  There are a few on this forum and I would be shocked if there's not one in the Seattle area. I say this with all due respect. 

That is the plan. However, I am trying to clear more questions (more grey areas) before I talk to the consultant. It is a huge difference between distill two gallons on the kitchen's cook-top and running 300 - 700 gallons still.

17 hours ago, Roger said:

You don't say what and how much you are attempting to produce. If you are shooting for a 1500sq ft facility in an urban area inclusive of a tasting room, you will probably not actually be distilling any significant product, so the type of energy you consume will be insignificant.

I was thinking about 1500 - 2500 sq. fts excluding tasting room. I guess, it should be enough space to start from one still (500+ gallons) with potential grows up to three stills: outcome of two runs of still #1 and still #2, will be a source for still #3. Or combination of different products. Currently, I am thinking about running flavored spirits. Plus, I have some ideas of making liquors based on flavored spirits with some infused addition. is it too small or too aggressive? Unfortunately, it is hard to setup any actual marketing goals/numbers w/o having actual product.

17 hours ago, Silk City Distillers said:

I always thought the holy grail would be to find a building on city steam - aka Con Ed steam in NYC.  Why even bother with a boiler?  Unlimited high pressure steam on tap.

That said, fuel oil isn’t mentioned often here - we burn fuel oil for steam.  Our boiler came with two burners, gas and oil.  Running gas was complex for us, the pipe was too small.  So we said screw it, drop in a 300 gallon tank, once oil gets expensive we would swap.  Oil still pretty cheap.

Sorry, I did not consider oil. Actually, I have no knowledge about oil fired stills.

17 hours ago, Southernhighlander said:

Your quote looks like it came from me. For direct heat, direct fired gas is dangerous indoors. Direct fired electric is okay but you should not put in low wines only wash and you cannot have solids in the pot or they will scorch, For indirect heat a natural gas fired low pressure steam boiler is best, propane fired is 2nd best and electric steam boiler is 3rd best, my baine marie electric over steam is 4th best, oil is 5th best and hot water sucks because it is so slow. Electric costs way more than natural gas in the long run but it can take 13 years for a nat gas low pressure steam boiler to pay for itself when firing a 100 gallon still, compared to a 100 gallon electric baine marie stills energy costs.  For a 300 gallon the nat gas fired low pressure steam boiler can pay for itself in 5 years. and larger stills less than 5 years.

Yes, that is from our conversation over email. I did not mention names as it was a personal conversation between me and you. I guess, I misunderstood you - I got your message as "gas fired stills and old date and cannot pass inspection these days". I guess, my problems is that I have no understanding of difference between NG direct fired stills and NG indirect fired still, and where steam boilers are located in this puzzle. I am thinking about 300+ gallons still, ideally 500+ gallons still. So, I am try to differentiate cost vs. complications.

17 hours ago, Silk City Distillers said:

Trying to compare this from a "simplicity" perspective is moot, since 110kw is going to require either 480v 3 phase, or heavy 400a 240v 3 phase.  If you don't have either, they'll cost the same as a steam boiler and gas to install.  Brewery next door just installed 400a 240v 3 phase, they had to pay the local utility $20,000 to drop power to the meter head, and probably another $20,000 of electrical work internally.

There is a "balance point", where the decision is significantly closer.  Probably around the 150 gallon mark, especially if you already have 240v 3 phase in place.  However, if you are successful, it means you are going to hit a point where you are scrapping your investments and installing steam and nat gas to be able to scale.

If I had heavy 480v 3 phase, and absolutely no option for natural gas or even fuel oil, I'd install a Sussman or Chromalox electric boiler.

Most likely, place that I can potentially rent or build would not have any serious NG or electrical service. So, most likely, it will be on my own expense. In this case, I guess, I should consider to setup a NG service and my still(s) will be NG based.

56 minutes ago, indyspirits said:

I believe they mean literally directly fired -- as in an open flame beneath the pot.  Less efficient than any other method of heating, and yes, I think it would be difficult to gain approval from your local permitting folks.

If you can afford steam, go with steam. There are folks here that will sing the virtues of the water bath. Just pull our your high-school physics book and calculate how long it will take to heat up. Time is your enemy in the distilling world.

When I mean heated by gas (NG or propane) vs. heating by electricity, I mean more like SFH gas or electrical water heater. Both of them meet modern fire hazard codes, and both of them gets approved by the local inspectors. However, it might have a different set of the requirements. In the same time, gas water heater has a boiler, and gas burner with some gas regulators and safety features. 

Thanks.

I am trying to find a property for the future distillery in greater Seattle area. Not an exact place for now - more like trying to figure out of what I can rent in term of size (I am looking for 1500 - 2500 sf. fts), utilities (sewer is a must, I guess), loadable dock (nice to have), small office, place to make a tasting room, etc.

The main question of what should be a source to heat the still? I thought, that gas is the most efficient way of doing that, and NG is cheaper and easier than propane. I actually thought, that steam based stills is a simply speaking big boiler with water or oil heated by the gas (for efficiency) and still's boiler is (simply speaking) floats there.

When I asked this question one of still fabricators, I got the following answer:

" ... Stills that are direct fired with gas are becoming a thing of the past.  There have been distillery explosions etc.  It is very unlikely that you could get a still like that passed a safety inspector or Fire Marshal.  However our electric baine maries stills that pass all inspections 99% of the time. .... "

Can you clarify this? Because, if it is true information, I can look for the places with electrical only, that is actually much easier to find.

Thanks

Thank you so much for your feedback.

I guess, topic is very well covered. I would thank you everyone, who spend your time and provided valuable feedback and shared a lot of useful information.

I will not consider to buy this distillery and will try to start  on my own.

Thanks to everyone.

I just got the numbers of how much other listed equipment will cost - that is actually the equipment from the guy, who wants to sell whole distillery - I asked about it in the topic below/above in the "Beginners". So the numbers are:

Stainless steel rectangular mush tun 4 fts x 8 fts x about 4 fts tall with 1.5 - 2" TC drain  - $2000
Plastic canonical fermenter, 275 - 300 gallons, with 2" TC drain and 2" TC sample drain - $800 each
Grinder mill, 240V - $1000
Stainless steel round fermenter, about 4 fts in diameter, about 4 fts tall, 1.5 - 2" TC drain on the bottom - $800
Gravity based stainless steel six spouts wine/spirit bottle filler - $1500

And still, 320 gallons with 6" column/4 fts long, 4" shotgun condenser / 4 fts long / 18kwatts heating element - $15000

Does it still worth to buy? Still or other equipment? Thanks

10 hours ago, dhdunbar said:

Remember, if you buy an interest in an existing entity, then you also inherit the entities liabilities.  I would not make such a purchase without contacting an attorney and seeing what precautions you might be able to take to ensure that the seller has disclosed all existing obligations.  See, for example, https://dor.wa.gov/get-form-or-publication/publications-subject/tax-topics/buying-assets-business.  Get competent legal advice.  I can point out questions you should ask; I cannot provide answers to those question.

Can you list these questions? I guess, it would be helpful for other people as well. Thanks

9 hours ago, dhdunbar said:

Remember, if you buy an interest in an existing entity, then you also inherit the entities liabilities.  I would not make such a purchase without contacting an attorney and seeing what precautions you might be able to take to ensure that the seller has disclosed all existing obligations.  See, for example, https://dor.wa.gov/get-form-or-publication/publications-subject/tax-topics/buying-assets-business.  Get competent legal advice.

I discussed about liabilities , mostly any unpaid lawns, liens, unpaid taxes, etc. I was told, that everything is clear. It obviously, should be checked carefully and with accountants/lawyers. Thanks

9 hours ago, dhdunbar said:

If you purchase a majority interest in a limited liability entity (corporation or LLC), which then continues to operate the DSP,  you have a change in control and the permit terminates, but if you apply for a permit within 39 days of the date of the change, the LLC can continue to operate on the existing permit until TTB takes action on the new application  (see §1.42 and 1.44).

I think, that option is what is suppose to happen, when people discuss to sell legal face of the distillery. Part of my question was if this legal face is asset (in addition to equipment, supplies and already distilled spirits), what would be a right price of this asset

p.s. I guess, you meant 30 days and 39 is just a type, because:

27 CFR § 1.44 - Automatic termination of permits.
§ 1.44 Automatic termination of permits.

No basic permit shall be leased, sold, or otherwise voluntarily transferred, and, in the event of such lease, sale, or other voluntary transfer, such basic permit shall automatically terminate thereupon. If any basic permit is transferred by operation of law or if actual or legal control of the permittee is acquired, directly or indirectly whether by stock ownership or in any other manner, by any person, then such permit shall be automatically terminated at the expiration of 30 days thereafter: Provided, That if within such 30-day period application for a new basic permit is made by the transferee or permittee, respectively, then the outstanding basic permit shall continue in effect until such time as the application is finally acted upon.

15 hours ago, Foreshot said:

Aside from the cost of the business, do you understand if it's the right business for you? If the business isn't that successful do you understand why? If so do you have the skillset(s) to fix it?  or the money to hire person/people with the right skillset(s)? Starting from scratch sucks, but it beats buying a bad company and riding it down. Do you think if you started a new company from scratch would you be in a better position in 3-5 years?

I have some ideas of how to make it works.

15 hours ago, Foreshot said:

So you're asking one of the hardest question in business. What is it worth? There aren't going to be any simple answers. It sounds like the business isn't that successful. If that's true then I would go in with more of a equipment replacement cost estimate (FFE - Furniture, Fixtures, and Equipment). The IP (name, licenses, etc) aren't worth much of anything as they are a small business. You could ask for an asset sale (FFE only) and ignore the rest. It's fairly common with small businesses.

Starting this discussion, I was trying to split the business on assets and potentials. i do not believe much in speech of the seller in potentials. So, I wanted to buy equipment (including, possibly some distilled stuff)  and legal face. My question was more about cost of legal side, since distillery is not a simple LLC, where you pay legal fees of a couple hundreds and get all paperwork in two weeks. What I read, people spent from 9 - 18 months in order to start to make a first run. So, asking this question, I was thinking, that buying already registered distillery, can allow me to dramatically shrink the time, I would wait to get fully legalized on my own. Pay for fees, lawyers, to be complaint with regulations, etc. That is what I was asked as a part of the question of how much it would cost.
I guess, I supposed to be more specific asking this.

15 hours ago, Foreshot said:

Revenue, not sales. HUGE difference.  If the person has lost money then the true value of the business is basically 0. A lot of people selling say "look at the potential". That potential, in all honesty, is what you're going to be putting into it. So they are getting you to pay for the work YOU are going to be doing.

Obviously, I was thinking too much about sale, that is why word revenue was replaced :(. Of course, I am talking about 2-3x of annual revenues.

Hello all,

I was offered to buy a distillery here in WA, and that is what comes with it

(a) certain equipment, such as
- tools to distill (it is an independent discussion if that tool set is ideal or not)
- aging, bottling supply, such as bottles, corks, barrels, oak in various forms, cardboard boxes, etc
- fermenting supply, such as malt and other similar supplies, yeasts and nutrients, different infusions, etc
- various distilled (but not aged) spirits, such as rum, brandy, Grain Neutral Spirits, etc
- various wash for distilling, such as fermented wine (for brandy), corn wash, etc

(b) already bottled spirits
(c) certain brands
(d) poor marketing contracts (unfortunately, they are not very successful in contracts, so there are not many constant sources of sale)
(e) about 4 months of the current lease of the building with about 5500 sq. fts
(f) tasting room in front of the distillery (its square is included into 5500 sq. fts above)
(g) something else, that I missed
(h) all legal distillery documents, including permits from federal permits and licenses till city approvals, etc

Majority of the letters above can be estimated regarding cost or remaining; marketing/contacts can be estimated as 2-3x of annual sale (for example). One of MAIN questions is cost of "legal distillery" such as all documents, permits, licenses, etc. Any ideas of how to estimate it?

The idea that I have in mind, is a cost of rental during the time, waiting for all permits and licenses PLUS cost of getting all required documents from federal to local city (if you start it from scratch) including legal help cost.

Thanks

6) Gravity based stainless steel six spouts wine/spirit bottle filler

5) Grinder mill, 240V

4) Plastic canonical fermenter, 275 - 300 gallons, with 2" TC drain and 2" TC sample drain. With stand. Two of them.

3) Stainless steel round fermenter, about 4 fts in diameter, about 4 fts tall, 1.5 - 2" TC drain on the bottom. Lid is some half size open/close functionality

Other equipment he is willing to sell - do not have price, yet.

2) Stainless steel rectangular mush tun 4 fts x 8 fts x about 4 fts tall with 1.5 - 2" TC drain, and has some pipes on the side.